[Tlhingan-hol] [tlhIngan-Hol] Klingons and cockroaches

mayqel qunenoS mihkoun at gmail.com
Wed Jun 1 09:21:48 PDT 2016 

thank you voragh !

On Wed, Jun 1, 2016 at 7:12 PM, Steven Boozer <sboozer at uchicago.edu> wrote:
> mayqel qunenoS :
>> but let me ask one more thing, in order to see whether I actually
>> understood the {-neS}.
>> someone tell me, if all these possible translations are correct, for the
>> sentence which I wrote :
>>
>> {targhwIj yIHoHneS} may translate as :
>>
>> do me the honor of killing my dog
>> kill my dog your honor
>> kill my dog your highness
>> etc..
>>
>> right ?
>
> All correct.  The point isn't the precise title or phrase which Okrand added to the translations - i.e. do me the honor, your highness, your majesty, your Magnificence, etc. - but the feel of the deference (dare I say, obsequiousness?) when addressing one of higher rank; probably, significantly higher rank.  (I wouldn't expect an army private to use {-neS} to his corporal or a waiter/waitress to a customer, for example.)
>
> Interestingly, none of Okrand's examples use {-neS} together with an actual rank or title (e.g. {joHwI'} "my lord/lady", {ta'wI'} "my emperor", {HoD} "captain", or even {qaH} "sir/ma'am" for that matter.  I suspect that would be felt as over-doing it or even sarcasm - which could have, as Okrand likes to put it, "unfortunate consequences".
>
>
> --
> Voragh
> tlhIngan ghantoH pIn'a'
> Ca'Non Master of the Klingons
>
>
>
>> On Wed, Jun 1, 2016 at 5:12 PM, Steven Boozer <sboozer at uchicago.edu>
>> wrote:
>> > qunnoq:
>> >> >> DojneS mIplIj
>> >> >> Your wealth is impressive, your Honor. PK
>> >> >
>> >> > this sentence rubs me the wrong way (as americans say) [...] So,
>> >> > this means what? that by placing the {-neS} on a verb, I just
>> >> > express politeness, without this {-neS} though, having anything to
>> >> > do with altering the verb's meaning?
>> >
>> > Lieven:
>> >> Yes indeed. Whatever the sentence is, by adding {-neS} it makes you
>> >> talk to a superior.
>> >>
>> >> Example:
>> >>    {DaHjaj jungwoqDaq SIS}
>> >>    "Today it's raining in China."
>> >>
>> >> adding {-neS} does not change anything on the phrase, except that you
>> >> show respect to the person you are talking to:
>> >>    {DaHjaj jungwoqDaq SISneS}
>> >>    "Today it's raining in China, sir."
>> >>    "Today it's raining in China, your honor."
>> >>    "Today it's raining in China, honorable king."
>> >>    "Today it's raining in China, you so much admired captain."
>> >>
>> >> (of course the words "captain" or "king" are not inlcuded, but it
>> >> makes the idea clear)
>> >
>> > qunnoq should note that it's more than simple courtesy (which is not
>> something Klingon warriors value), but rather *extreme* politeness or
>> deference and is only used in addressing a superior.  As Okrand pointed
>> out:  "It is never required ... This suffix is used rather infrequently by
>> Klingons" (TKD p.43).  Consequently, there are relatively few known
>> examples in canon:
>> >
>> >   qaleghneS
>> >   I am honored to see you. PK
>> >
>> >   choQaHpu'neS
>> >   You, honored one, have helped me. KGT
>> >
>> >   qatlhobneS
>> >   Please. (TNK)
>> >
>> >   po'neS baHwI'pu'lI'
>> >   Your gunners are skilled, your Honor. PK
>> >
>> >   DojneS mIplIj
>> >   Your wealth is impressive, your Honor. PK
>> >
>> >   cha'puj vIngevmeH chaw' HInobneS
>> >   Give me a permit to sell dilithium, your honor. PK
>> >
>> >   QaghwIj vIQIj 'e' yIchaw'neS
>> >   Permit me to explain my mistake, your Honor. PK
>> >
>> >   naDev juHlIjDaq cha'logh jISopneSchugh vaj jIquv
>> >   It would be an honor to eat twice here at your house, your Honor. PK
>> >
>> >
>> > Here are more details for those interested:
>> >
>> > TKD 43:  There is but one suffix in this category. It is used to express
>> extreme politeness or deference. It is used only in addressing a superior,
>> someone of higher rank in the Klingon social, political, or military
>> hierarchy. It is never required.
>> >    {qaleghneS}   I am honored to see you
>> >    {HIja'neS}    do me the honor of telling me
>> > This suffix is used rather infrequently by Klingons.
>> >
>> > KGT 192:  Thus, {qaleghneS} ("I see you honorably" or, perhaps more
>> naturally, "I am honored to see you"), which ends in the honorific suffix
>> {-neS}, is different in meaning from {qaleghnIS} ("I need to see you"),
>> which ends in the suffix {-nIS} (need, must). Furthermore, since {-neS} is
>> used only in addressing a superior, saying {-neS} rather than {-nIS} may
>> be bestowing honor inappropriately.
>> >
>> > KGT 38-39:  The most obvious grammatical feature associated with social
>> status is the verb suffix {-neS} (an honorific) used to express a high
>> degree of respect or honor. For example, one might say {choQaHpu'neS},
>> which might be rather awkwardly translated as "You, honored one, have
>> helped me". (Compare this to {choQaHpu'} ["You have helped me."]) Though
>> there is no situation in which the use of {-neS} is required and its use
>> is rather infrequent, when it is used, it is used only when addressing
>> someone of higher rank, such as a higher officer in the military or a high
>> political leader. It would not be used by a higher-ranking officer, for
>> example, when speaking to a lower-ranking officer, nor would it be used
>> when talking about a higher-ranking person. Thus, one would not describe
>> being aided by a superior by saying {muQaHpu'neS} ("He/she, whom I honor,
>> has helped me").
>> >    Of course, one does not need the suffix {-neS} in order to speak of
>> > honor. The adverbial {batlh} (in an honored fashion) may be used for
>> > exactly this function, as in {batlh muQaHpu'} ("He/she has helped me
>> > in an honored way" or "He/she has helped me with honor"). While it
>> > would be entirely inappropriate for a superior to say to an inferior
>> > {choQaHpu'neS} ("You, honored one, have helped me"), the superior may
>> > say {batlh choQaHpu'} ("You have helped me in an honored way" or "You
>> > have helped me with honor"). The relative ranking of individuals may
>> > be ascertained by noting who says -neS to whom." (KGT 38-39)
>> >
>> > (Lawrence Schoen, DaHjaj Hol 110623):  {-neS} is an honorific, and you
>> tack it on to the end of a verb when you are speaking to someone and wish
>> to convey your deference or respect. You'd certainly use this when
>> speaking to the Emperor, but might also use it to show respect to a
>> superior, an elder, a teacher, or most anyone you wish to grovel before
>> (not that Klingons grovel, mind you). Translations of this suffix always
>> sound a little odd to English speakers; probably because we don't have
>> this kind of phenomenon. As such, don't worry too much about the
>> literalness of the translation, and instead understand the intention,
>> which is to be formal and polite.
>> >
>> > KGT 49:  The honorific verb suffix {-neS}, usually used when addressing
>> a superior, is also used when the verb refers to a suicide attack of some
>> kind: {HIvneS}, awkwardly translated as "honor-attack", implies that
>> suicide is part of the plan of the attack. Similarly, {HubneS} ("honor-
>> defend") is used only when suicide is part of the defense plan. To say
>> "attack honorably" but not refer to a suicide mission, the adverbial
>> {batlh} is employed and the suffix {-neS} is not: {batlh HIv} ("attack
>> honorably, attack in an honorable fashion").
>> >
>> > Honorifics do show up in Terran languages.  Arika Okrent wrote in her
>> entertaining (and highly recommended) 2009 book _In the land of invented
>> languages: Esperanto rock stars, Klingon poets, Loglan lovers, and the mad
>> dreamers who tried to build a perfect language_ (New York: Spiegel & Grau;
>> cf. http://inthelandofinventedlanguages.com/ ):
>> >
>> >   Honorifics ({-neS}), used to recognize superior social status
>> >   in the person being spoken to or about, are a part of Korean
>> >   and Japanese.  [page 270]
>> >
>> >
>> > And while we're talking deference, don't forget {qaH} "sir":
>> >
>> >   bach Do', qaH...
>> >   A lucky shot sir... ST3
>> >
>> >   yajchu', qaH.
>> >   Understood clearly, sir. ST3
>> >
>> >   lu', qaH!
>> >   Yes, sir! KGT
>> >
>> > But be careful when using it:
>> >
>> > KGT 193:  Misprounouncing {qaH} as {qagh} has often led to particularly
>> unfortunate results.
>> >
>> > And God help you if you inadvertantly say {qoH} "fool"!
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > Voragh
>> > tlhIngan ghantoH pIn'a'
>> > Ca'Non Master of the Klingons
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
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>>
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