[Tlhingan-hol] Klingons and cockroaches

[mayqel qunenoS]

thank you voragh !

but let me ask one more thing, in order to see whether I actually
understood the {-neS}.

someone tell me, if all these possible translations are correct, for
the sentence which I wrote :

{targhwIj yIHoHneS} may translate as :

do me the honor of killing my dog
kill my dog your honor
kill my dog your highness
etc..

right ?



On Wed, Jun 1, 2016 at 5:12 PM, Steven Boozer <sboozer at uchicago.edu> wrote:
> qunnoq:
>> >> DojneS mIplIj
>> >> Your wealth is impressive, your Honor. PK
>> >
>> > this sentence rubs me the wrong way (as americans say) [...]
>> > So, this means what? that by placing the {-neS} on a verb, I just
>> > express politeness, without this {-neS} though, having anything to do
>> > with altering the verb's meaning?
>
> Lieven:
>> Yes indeed. Whatever the sentence is, by adding {-neS} it makes you talk
>> to a superior.
>>
>> Example:
>>    {DaHjaj jungwoqDaq SIS}
>>    "Today it's raining in China."
>>
>> adding {-neS} does not change anything on the phrase, except that you show
>> respect to the person you are talking to:
>>    {DaHjaj jungwoqDaq SISneS}
>>    "Today it's raining in China, sir."
>>    "Today it's raining in China, your honor."
>>    "Today it's raining in China, honorable king."
>>    "Today it's raining in China, you so much admired captain."
>>
>> (of course the words "captain" or "king" are not inlcuded, but it makes
>> the idea clear)
>
> qunnoq should note that it's more than simple courtesy (which is not something Klingon warriors value), but rather *extreme* politeness or deference and is only used in addressing a superior.  As Okrand pointed out:  "It is never required ... This suffix is used rather infrequently by Klingons" (TKD p.43).  Consequently, there are relatively few known examples in canon:
>
>   qaleghneS
>   I am honored to see you. PK
>
>   choQaHpu'neS
>   You, honored one, have helped me. KGT
>
>   qatlhobneS
>   Please. (TNK)
>
>   po'neS baHwI'pu'lI'
>   Your gunners are skilled, your Honor. PK
>
>   DojneS mIplIj
>   Your wealth is impressive, your Honor. PK
>
>   cha'puj vIngevmeH chaw' HInobneS
>   Give me a permit to sell dilithium, your honor. PK
>
>   QaghwIj vIQIj 'e' yIchaw'neS
>   Permit me to explain my mistake, your Honor. PK
>
>   naDev juHlIjDaq cha'logh jISopneSchugh vaj jIquv
>   It would be an honor to eat twice here at your house, your Honor. PK
>
>
> Here are more details for those interested:
>
> TKD 43:  There is but one suffix in this category. It is used to express extreme politeness or deference. It is used only in addressing a superior, someone of higher rank in the Klingon social, political, or military hierarchy. It is never required.
>    {qaleghneS}   I am honored to see you
>    {HIja'neS}    do me the honor of telling me
> This suffix is used rather infrequently by Klingons.
>
> KGT 192:  Thus, {qaleghneS} ("I see you honorably" or, perhaps more naturally, "I am honored to see you"), which ends in the honorific suffix {-neS}, is different in meaning from {qaleghnIS} ("I need to see you"), which ends in the suffix {-nIS} (need, must). Furthermore, since {-neS} is used only in addressing a superior, saying {-neS} rather than {-nIS} may be bestowing honor inappropriately.
>
> KGT 38-39:  The most obvious grammatical feature associated with social status is the verb suffix {-neS} (an honorific) used to express a high degree of respect or honor. For example, one might say {choQaHpu'neS}, which might be rather awkwardly translated as "You, honored one, have helped me". (Compare this to {choQaHpu'} ["You have helped me."]) Though there is no situation in which the use of {-neS} is required and its use is rather infrequent, when it is used, it is used only when addressing someone of higher rank, such as a higher officer in the military or a high political leader. It would not be used by a higher-ranking officer, for example, when speaking to a lower-ranking officer, nor would it be used when talking about a higher-ranking person. Thus, one would not describe being aided by a superior by saying {muQaHpu'neS} ("He/she, whom I honor, has helped me").
>    Of course, one does not need the suffix {-neS} in order to speak of honor. The adverbial {batlh} (in an honored fashion) may be used for exactly this function, as in {batlh muQaHpu'} ("He/she has helped me in an honored way" or "He/she has helped me with honor"). While it would be entirely inappropriate for a superior to say to an inferior {choQaHpu'neS} ("You, honored one, have helped me"), the superior may say {batlh choQaHpu'} ("You have helped me in an honored way" or "You have helped me with honor"). The relative ranking of individuals may be ascertained by noting who says -neS to whom." (KGT 38-39)
>
> (Lawrence Schoen, DaHjaj Hol 110623):  {-neS} is an honorific, and you tack it on to the end of a verb when you are speaking to someone and wish to convey your deference or respect. You'd certainly use this when speaking to the Emperor, but might also use it to show respect to a superior, an elder, a teacher, or most anyone you wish to grovel before (not that Klingons grovel, mind you). Translations of this suffix always sound a little odd to English speakers; probably because we don't have this kind of phenomenon. As such, don't worry too much about the literalness of the translation, and instead understand the intention, which is to be formal and polite.
>
> KGT 49:  The honorific verb suffix {-neS}, usually used when addressing a superior, is also used when the verb refers to a suicide attack of some kind: {HIvneS}, awkwardly translated as "honor-attack", implies that suicide is part of the plan of the attack. Similarly, {HubneS} ("honor-defend") is used only when suicide is part of the defense plan. To say "attack honorably" but not refer to a suicide mission, the adverbial {batlh} is employed and the suffix {-neS} is not: {batlh HIv} ("attack honorably, attack in an honorable fashion").
>
> Honorifics do show up in Terran languages.  Arika Okrent wrote in her entertaining (and highly recommended) 2009 book _In the land of invented languages: Esperanto rock stars, Klingon poets, Loglan lovers, and the mad dreamers who tried to build a perfect language_ (New York: Spiegel & Grau; cf. http://inthelandofinventedlanguages.com/ ):
>
>   Honorifics ({-neS}), used to recognize superior social status
>   in the person being spoken to or about, are a part of Korean
>   and Japanese.  [page 270]
>
>
> And while we're talking deference, don't forget {qaH} "sir":
>
>   bach Do', qaH...
>   A lucky shot sir... ST3
>
>   yajchu', qaH.
>   Understood clearly, sir. ST3
>
>   lu', qaH!
>   Yes, sir! KGT
>
> But be careful when using it:
>
> KGT 193:  Misprounouncing {qaH} as {qagh} has often led to particularly unfortunate results.
>
> And God help you if you inadvertantly say {qoH} "fool"!
>
>
> --
> Voragh
> tlhIngan ghantoH pIn'a'
> Ca'Non Master of the Klingons
>
>
>
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