[Tlhingan-hol] KLBC: {-'e'} and {-bogh}

[mayql qunenoS]

> I know it's KLBC, but I'm reading this as you want to see lots of sentences,
> from all of us right?

yes, indeed !

> It's not clear from your question whether your issue is with how to
> correctly place -'e', how to interpret it,

both ! I can't understand how to correctly place it, and neither how
to interpret it. Anyway, thank you very much, for taking the time to
write all those examples.

lets see now, if I understand these sentences :

> lo'laHbe' HIch bachbogh mang'e'.

I see here the {-'e'} attached to {mang}, so I guess that the head
noun (the noun to which everything refers) is {mang}. So the sentence
must mean <the soldier who fired the gun is useless>. So, here the
{-'e'} has the purpose of clarifying that it is the soldier who is
useless and not the gun.

> lo'laHbe' HIch'e' bachbogh mang.

contrary to the example above, here, it is the gun which is useless.
So the translation would be <the gun which the soldier fired is
useless>

> chalDaq Qob nIn Hutlhbogh muD Duj.

I would translate this as <an airplane which lacks fuel is dangerous
at the sky> or maybe <the sky (where there is) an airplane without
fuel is dangerous>. So, if I understand now the application of {-'e'}
correctly, I could place the {-'e'}, depending on the intented
translation, this way :

an airplane which lacks fuel is dangerous at the sky.
chalDaq Qob nIn Hutlhbogh muD Duj'e'.

the sky (where there is) an airplane without fuel is dangerous
chalDaq'e' Qob nIn Hutlhbogh muD Duj

moving on..

> DaHjaj vengmajDaq 'oHtaH muD Duj QIHta'bogh SorghwI'.  => -'e' possible, but
> completely unnecessary.

I understand this sentence, and the reason why the {-'e} is
unnecessary ; however shouldn't instead of {'oHtaH} the {ghaHtaH} be
used ? It is the SorghwI' who is today at our city, and the SorghwI'
can either be a <he> or a <she>.

> Duj'e' maSbogh Sa' nejlI' nawlogh.

this must be <the squadron searches for the vessel which the general
prefers>. I believe if we wanted to say <the squadron searches for the
general who prefers the vessel> the sentence would be {Duj maSbogh
Sa''e' nejlI' nawlogh}

(by now, my mind has been tied to a knot, but I love this !)

> Duj'e' maSbogh Sa' nejlI' nawlogh'e' ra'bogh Sa'.

this must be <the squadron which the general commands, searches for
the vessel which the general prefers>

> Duj lunejlI' qoq le' luchenmoHbogh wa'maH wa' rewbe'.  => -'e' can be used
> on only one of rewbe' and qoq. Which?

I believe the translation must be <eleven citizens who created the
exceptional robot, search for the ship>, so the {-'e'} (I think) must
be placed on {rewbe'}. It is the citizens who are able to create the
robot. The robot can't create living citizens. After all we have the
verb prefix {lu-} on the {nej}.

> Duj nejlI' qoq le' luchenmoHbogh wa'maH wa' rewbe'. => -'e' can be used on
> only one of rewbe' and qoq. Which?

the {nej} has the zero prefix, so this must translate as <the
exceptional robot which was created by eleven citizens searches for
the ship>. I would say that the {-'e'} should go on the {qoq}.. but
since the {qoq} is followed by a verb, and the {-'e'} is a type 5 noun
suffix, I think that it should go on the {le'}.

>Duj nejlI' qoq le' chenmoHbogh wa'maH wa' rewbe'. => -'e' can be used on
> either rewbe' or qoq, with different meanings.

ok, I see here zero prefixes on both verbs so if the {-'e'} goes on
{rewbe'} this would mean : <the eleven citizens who were created by
the robot search for the ship>.

if the {-'e'} goes on the {qoq} (that is the {le'}) the translation
would be <the exceptional robot which created the eleven citizens,
searches for the ship>.

ok, I will stop now (because this reply is getting really long).
please tell me your comments/observations on my answers so far, and
then I will move on to the rest of your sentences.

thank you very much, for taking the time to reply. I think that things
are getting clearer !

cpt qunnoq

On Mon, Jan 18, 2016 at 1:14 AM,  <qov at kli.org> wrote:
> I just like writing sentences. Someone else specify something for me to
> write sentences about, or I might not stop. Most of these sentences neither
> use nor need -'e' but as an exercise you could think about where it could go
> on each.
>
> muD Duj QIH SorghwI'.
> DaHjaj vengmajDaq 'oHtaH muD Duj QIHta'bogh SorghwI'.  => -'e' possible, but
> completely unnecessary.
> muD Duj QIHta'bogh SorghwI' muHlu'. => -'e' possible, but completely
> unnecessary.
> narghmeH muD Duj QIHta'bogh SorghwI', 'avwI' ngagh. => still unnecessary
> Duj maSbogh Sa' Sorghta' 'urwI'. => -'e' unnecessary because the verb only
> matches one of the possible objects
> Duj maSbogh Sa' quchta' 'urwI'. => -'e' unnecessary because the verb only
> matches one of the possible objects
> Duj'e' maSbogh Sa' nejlI' nawlogh.
> Duj'e' maSbogh Sa' nejlI' nawlogh'e' ra'bogh Sa'.
> Duj lunejl' wa'maH wa' rewbe'.
> Duj lunejlI' qoq le' luchenmoHbogh wa'maH wa' rewbe'.  => -'e' can be used
> on only one of rewbe' and qoq. Which?
> Duj nejlI' qoq le' luchenmoHbogh wa'maH wa' rewbe'. => -'e' can be used on
> only one of rewbe' and qoq. Which?
> Duj nejlI' qoq le' chenmoHbogh wa'maH wa' rewbe'. => -'e' can be used on
> either rewbe' or qoq, with different meanings.
> HeghDI' loDnal'e' maSqu'bogh ta', tagh rInbe'bogh noH.  = The endless war
> began when the emperor's favourite husband died.
>
> DIr QIH tIH. = The ray damages skin.
> tIH bach tal. = The cannon shoots a ray.
> DIr Qan Sut le'. = Special clothing protects skin.
> DIr Qanbe' Sut motlh. = Ordinary clothing does not protect skin.
> DIr'e' Qanbe'bogh Sut le' = skin unprotected by special clothing [sentence
> fragment]
> DIr Qanbe'bogh Sut'e' = clothing that does not protect skin [sentence
> fragment]
> DIr'e' Qanbe'bogh Sut le' QIH tIH. = The ray damages skin that is
> unprotected by special clothing.
> DIr Qanbe'bogh Sut le''e' QIH tIH. = The ray damages special clothing that
> does not protect skin.
> qIjchoH DIr Qanbe'bogh Sut le'. = Skin unprotected by special clothing turns
> black.
> DIr QIHbogh tIH bach tal lo'bogh jagh.  => two ways to interpret, both are
> equally useful.
> DIr QIHbogh tIH nuD Qel Dorbogh chamwI'. = Four possibilities here; the two
> below are the most likely.
> DIr'e' QIHbogh tIH nuD Qel'e' Dorbogh chamwI'.
> DIr QIHbogh tIH'e' nuD Qel Dorbogh chamwI''e'.
> mang vaQHa'moH DIr QIHbogh tIH.
> 'up DIr QIHpu'bogh tIH.
> mang HoH DIr QIHbogh tIH.
> ra'wI' pon mang Qotlhbogh tIH. = "The soldier-disabling ray convinces the
> commander." or "The soldier disabled by the ray convinces the commander."
> che'ronDaq jachtaH negh Qotlhpu'bogh tIH.
> che'ron ghatlh negh Qotlhpu'bogh tIH.
> che'ronDaq negh Qotlhpu'bogh tIH'e' Qaw' jorwI'. = Explosives destroy the
> ray that disabled soldiers on the battlefield.
> che'ronDaq negh'e' Qotlhpu'bogh tIH Qaw' jorwI'. = Explosives destroy the
> soldiers disabled by the ray on the battlefield.
> veSvam yapbe'bej ngat ngaSbogh nIch'e'. = Gunpowder-containing ammunition is
> definitely not sufficient for this warfare.
> HIvQo' tIH leghpu'bogh QaS'e'. = Troops who have seen the ray refuse to
> attack.
> HIvqa'Qo' QaS rIQ leghpu'bogh HoD'e'.  = The captain who has seen the
> injured troops refuses to resume the attack.
> HeDlI'bogh QaS qIch ghu' yajbe'bogh totlh. = A commodore who doesn't
> understand the situation condemns the retreating troops.
> reH Hegh yoHwI'pu''e'. => Don't forget that this is the same -'e'. It simply
> calls more attention to one of the nouns.
> toDSaH ghaH totlhvetlh'e'. = That commodore is a @#$%.  => This is the only
> type of sentence in which the -'e' is required (for non-Morskans).
>
> mu'tlhegh qontaHbogh Qov mevnISmoH vay'. :-)
>
>   - Qov 'utlh
> --
> Online Klingon Course free to all KLI members:
> http://www.kli.org/members-only/klcp-prep/
>
>
>
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: qov at kli.org [mailto:qov at kli.org]
>> Sent: January 17, 2016 13:33
>> To: tlhIngan Hol mailing list
>> Subject: Re: [Tlhingan-hol] KLBC: {-'e'} and {-bogh}
>>
>> So I do have something else to do, but I'm sad that there are no more
>> example sentences, so I'm going to write some more.
>>
>> HIch bach mang. = The soldier shoots the pistol. (Yeah, the official gloss
> is
>> "handgun" but I looked up both handgun and pistol in the Canadian Oxford
>> and the definitions are too close to identical to whine about).
>> Duy' HIch bachbogh mang. = The pistol the soldier shoots is defective. It
>> could be interpreted that it was the soldier who was defective, but unless
> it's
>> a robosoldier, 'defective' isn't a word that would normally be used for a
>> soldier. After reading the word Duy', I'm primed to look for a physical
> object
>> to be the subject of the sentence, so I latch onto HIch and read it
> correctly
>> without the help of -'e'.
>> tlhIv HIch bachbogh mang. = The soldier who shoots the pistol is
>> insubordinate. Again, unless we're dealing with advanced AI, there's only
>> one side of the -bogh clause that can be the subject of the verb, so
> reading it
>> I disregard HIch as a possible subject and keep reading to mang.
>> lo'laHbe' HIch bachbogh mang'e'. => No translation given here or below, so
>> you have a chance to read such sentences for yourself and decide what they
>> mean. It's not clear from your question whether your issue is with how to
>> correctly place -'e', how to interpret it, or why you'd want the darn
> thing in
>> the first place.
>> lo'laHbe' HIch'e' bachbogh mang.  => Either a soldier or a handgun can be
>> useless, so the -'e' is useful here to indicate which is the useless item
> in each
>> sentence. It's still not required.  qunnoq HoD could watch a soldier fire
> a
>> handgun and proclaim "lo'laHbe'!" without telling his audience whether it
>> was the personnel or equipment of which he disapproved.
>>
>> And here's a bonus sixth sentence to show the power of not using -'e'.
>>
>> chalDaq Qob nIn Hutlhbogh muD Duj.
>>
>> It says two things at once, both true. It's also okay if the reader takes
> just one
>> meaning and moves on.
>>
>> Personally, I only use -'e' in relative clauses if I think that without
> it, an
>> intelligent reader will take a meaning I didn't intend, or if the sentence
> is
>> sufficiently complex that -'e' will help the reader know when the relative
>> clause ends.
>>
>> - Qov
>>
>> > mu'tlhegh qon be'. = The woman wrote a sentence.
>> > mu'tlhegh qonbogh be' vIlaD. = I read the sentence the woman  wrote.
>> > (I could use -'e' here, but it's obvious that you don't read a woman,
>> > so why bother).
>> > mu'tlhegh qonbogh be' vIparHa'. = I like the sentence the woman wrote.
>> > OR
>> I
>> > like the woman who wrote the sentence.
>> > mu'tlhegh'e' qonbogh be' vIparHa'. = I like the sentence the woman
> wrote.
>> > OR It's the sentence the woman wrote that I like.
>> > mu'tlhegh qonbogh be''e' vIparHa'. = I like the woman who wrote the
>> > sentence. OR It's the woman who wrote the sentence that I like.
>> >
>> > There's my five. I hope your plan works and once you get a good
>> > collection
>> of
>> > examples, it falls into place.
>> >
>> > - Qov
>> >
>> > > -----Original Message-----
>> > > From: mayql qunenoS [mailto:mihkoun at gmail.com]
>> > > Sent: January 17, 2016 2:32
>> > > To: tlhIngan Hol mailing list
>> > > Subject: [Tlhingan-hol] KLBC: {-'e'} and {-bogh}
>> > >
>> > > qavan 'arHa'
>> > >
>> > > this may be an unusual request for the KLBC, however I will ask,
>> > > because I can't seem to understand the use of {-'e'} when the
>> > > {-bogh} comes into
>> > play..
>> > >
>> > > could you write 5 sentences of your own, where there is {-bogh}, and
>> > > the
>> > {-
>> > > 'e'} used to distinguish where the {-bogh} refers ?
>> > >
>> > > I'm asking that you write 5 sentences of your own, because I have
>> > > already studied the TKD sentences and I didn't understand. Also, I'm
>> > > not trying to write my own sentences, because I have no jay' idea
>> > > how the ghe'tor I'm supposed to use {-bogh} and {-'e'} together.
>> > >
>> > > thanks
>> > >
>> > > cpt qunnoq
>> > >
>> > > _______________________________________________
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>> > > Tlhingan-hol at kli.org
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>> >
>> >
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>>
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