[Tlhingan-hol] Interesting {je}

[lojmIttI'wI'nuv]

On the one hand, I’m deeply respectful of the accomplishment of Okrand to have developed so useful a language, so well suited to the character of a fictional race, so efficient and clear in its expressive capability, full of humor and spark, and in so short a timeframe in terms of setting up the base foundation.

On the other hand, canon brings up inconsistencies and what are clearly changes in what were earlier ideals of how the language is “supposed to work”.

But that’s been a problem from the start. It wasn’t supposed to have the verb “to be”, and Nimoy, as director, turns to him on set and says, “Give me ‘To be, or not to be.’” It was supposed to have tense, and it wasn’t going to have three different plural suffixes, and script changes forced those adaptations.

And while I was one of those people who thought that {je} was being used adverbially on page 55 in TKD, your arguments turned me around on the topic. Actually looking at TKD page 55, it’s clear that it’s still referring to nouns, not the verb.

And now, he seems to be using it adverbially. wejpuH.

I often say that my job does not have a career path. I have a career dot, and it keeps moving around and I have to jump to stay on top of it. It seems that the Klingon language is similar.

Most of what we were taught in TKD is still true. The list of exceptions grows.

I really wish he could publish TKD: The Next Edition. Spend more time explaining more things in greater detail, encompassing the matured range of the language, with better definitions for the words (at least expanding some of them more explicitly to where canon has taken them) and better explained grammar, particularly in the full range of the use of {je}, and in the {-meH} clauses relating to negative statements, as in {bIpIvmeH tlhoy bItlhutlh,}, which probably means “You drink an unhealthy quantity,” or {bIpIvmeH Qab HIq,} which probably means “Liquor is bad for your health.”

I don’t WANT these to mean this, but that’s what they apparently mean. And he could straighten these things out, once and for all, without every Klingon speaker needing to become an expert in collecting and interpreting canon.

pItlh
lojmIt tI'wI'nuv



> On Feb 5, 2016, at 9:03 AM, SuStel <sustel at trimboli.name> wrote:
> 
> On 2/5/2016 7:17 AM, De'vID wrote:
>> SuStel:
>>>> Except {je} does not mean <Someone does a thing> <Someone does a different
>>>> thing also>. Conjoining verbs like that is what {'ej} is for. See my reply
>>>> to André Müller on this.
>> 
>> ghunchu'wI':
>>> I used to be similarly strict in my belief about {je}. Then it was
>>> pointed out to me that Marc Okrand once wrote:
>>>> qep'a' wejDIchDaq jatlhtaH tlhIngan Hol HaDwI'pu'. ghoHtaH je. tIv'eghtaH je.
>>> 
>>> http://klingonska.org/canon/1996-11-10b-news.txt
>>> 
>>> According to this, {V1. V2 je} *can* mean [V1 happens. V2 also
>>> happens.] TKD simply gives incomplete information in this case.
>>> 
>>> Accepting this usage means that {yoHbogh matlhbogh je SuvwI'} doesn't
>>> have to be dismissed as "poetic grammar".
>> 
>> There's also this SkyBox card:
>> 
>> {lI’­qu’ tlhI­ngan may’ taj. not Hub­’egh­rup­Ha’ lo’­wI’. taj
>> Dop­mey­Daq nargh cha’ taj­Hom. ghop lu­Qan taj­Hom­mey. pe’­laH je.
>> moQ­Daq DuQ­wI’ Hom­mey jej tu’­lu’. pay’ HIv­DI’ lo’­wI’ pagh mup­DI’
>> QIH­chu’ bIH.}
>> "The Klingon battle knife is designed primarily for versatility of
>> use, so that the user is never caught at a disadvantage. Two small,
>> secondary blades eject from the knife’s sides, providing both a hand
>> guard and another set of cutting edges. A brutally spiked pommel
>> fastens the hilt together to provide a damaging surprise attack or
>> give a devastating backhand stroke."
>> 
>> The relevant part: {ghop lu­Qan taj­Hom­mey. pe’­laH je.}  One can
>> interpret this to mean "The secondary blades (in addition to the main
>> blades) can cut", but another (perhaps more natural?) way to read this
>> is as "the secondary blades protect the hand; they can also cut".
> 
> I'm sold. I guess the correction I received on this topic was incomplete in its consideration of canon.
> 
> P.S.: I found at least one more of these in paq'batlh...
> 
> -- 
> SuStel
> http://trimboli.name <http://trimboli.name/>
> 
> 
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