[Tlhingan-hol] Objects, direct and indirect

[SuStel]

On 11/25/2015 12:15 PM, De'vID wrote:
> SuStel:
>>>>> {ra'wI'} is the causer—the {-moH} suffix tells us that. Since the prefix
>>>>> trick doesn't work for third-person objects, {SuvwI'} MUST be the agent.
>>>>> {SuvwI' qIpmoH ra'wI'} can only mean "the commander made the warrior hit
>>>>> (someone)."
>
> De'vID:
>>> I'm not following your reasoning here.
>>>
>>> Going by the example from S20:
>>> {quHDaj qaw [wo'rIv]}
>>> {[wo'rIvvaD] quHDaj qawmoH Ha'quj}
>>>
>>> If the prefix trick doesn't work for third-person objects, that would
>>> prevent us from turning {wo'rIvvaD [quHDaj] qawmoH Ha'quj} into
>>> {wo'rIv qawmoH Ha'quj}. Thus, if we saw the sentence {wo'rIv qawmoH
>>> Ha'quj}, wouldn't it be the case that {wo'rIv} must be what you've
>>> called the "theme", and not the agent?
>
> SuStel:
>> That's not the prefix trick. The prefix trick is only about making the verb
>> prefix agree with an unstated first- or second-person indirect object.
>
> I think that's what I'm saying...? If the prefix trick doesn't apply
> here (there's no first- or second-person anything involved), doesn't
> that necessarily make {SuvwI'} what you've called the theme? I don't
> understand the reasoning that leads you to conclude that {SuvwI'}
> "MUST" be the agent.

Oh, I see. Okay, I take it back: {SuvwI'} might be the agent or it might 
be the patient. (A theme is like a patient except it hasn't been changed 
by the action.)

SuvwI' qIpmoH ra'wI'
the commander causes the warrior to hit (someone in general)
the commander causes (someone in general) to hit the warrior

With {ghojmoH} the difference between agent and theme will usually be 
obvious. With {qIpmoH} the difference between agent and patient may not 
be obvious, outside of context. And this is where I become 
uncomfortable. While {SuvwI'vaD 'urwI' qIpmoH ra'wI'} fits the syntactic 
pattern of S20, I'm not sure that either benefactive or indirect object 
are appropriate for the intended meaning. I'm not sure anything is 
happening "for" the warrior or "to" the warrior.

-- 
SuStel
http://www.trimboli.name/