[Tlhingan-hol] Objects, direct and indirect

[De'vID]

SuStel:
>>>> {ra'wI'} is the causer—the {-moH} suffix tells us that. Since the prefix
>>>> trick doesn't work for third-person objects, {SuvwI'} MUST be the agent.
>>>> {SuvwI' qIpmoH ra'wI'} can only mean "the commander made the warrior hit
>>>> (someone)."

De'vID:
>> I'm not following your reasoning here.
>>
>> Going by the example from S20:
>> {quHDaj qaw [wo'rIv]}
>> {[wo'rIvvaD] quHDaj qawmoH Ha'quj}
>>
>> If the prefix trick doesn't work for third-person objects, that would
>> prevent us from turning {wo'rIvvaD [quHDaj] qawmoH Ha'quj} into
>> {wo'rIv qawmoH Ha'quj}. Thus, if we saw the sentence {wo'rIv qawmoH
>> Ha'quj}, wouldn't it be the case that {wo'rIv} must be what you've
>> called the "theme", and not the agent?

SuStel:
> That's not the prefix trick. The prefix trick is only about making the verb
> prefix agree with an unstated first- or second-person indirect object.

I think that's what I'm saying...? If the prefix trick doesn't apply
here (there's no first- or second-person anything involved), doesn't
that necessarily make {SuvwI'} what you've called the theme? I don't
understand the reasoning that leads you to conclude that {SuvwI'}
"MUST" be the agent.

Based on the pattern in S20:
{SuvwI' qIp [yaS]}
{[yaSvaD] SuvwI' qIpmoH ra'wI'}

It looks to me like {SuvwI'} would be the people who is hit here, not
the person who is doing the hitting. That is, if we go by S20. But as
QeS pointed out, S31 supports your interpretation. So I get why you
think {SuvwI'} is the agent, but I don't get why you think it *must*
be the agent.

QeS:
>>> The object of {ghuH} is the patient: the thing prepared for (from the
>>> gloss
>>> "prepare for, be alerted to"). But the syntactic object in the S31
>>> sentence,
>>> the object of {ghuHmoH}, is *not* the patient, the thing prepared for.
>>> Instead, it's the beneficiary, or causee, if I can use that term: those
>>> who
>>> are being alerted. It's what one would have expected in the {-vaD} role
>>> if
>>> one were to base the pattern on the {Ha'quj} sentence from S20.

De'vID:
>> Exactly. Why doesn't it work like in S20?
>>
>> {[qen Heghbogh tlhIngan SuvwI'] ghuH Heghpu'bogh latlhpu'}
>> {Heghpu'bogh latlhpu'vaD [tlhIngan SuvwI'] ghuHmoH bey}

SuStel:
> Who says it doesn't?

I must just be failing to understand something, because I think that's
what you're saying in the above, when you say that {SuvwI'} must be
the agent of {qIp} when it is the object of {qIpmoH}.

SuStel:
> I'd say that works, though written out fully it'd be a
> real bear:
>
> Heghpu'bogh latlhpu'vaD qen Heghbogh tlhIngan SuvwI' ghuHmoH bey

But if you saw just {qen Heghbogh tlhIngan SuvwI' ghuHmoH bey}, would
you think that {qen Heghbogh tlhIngan SuvwI'} is the agent (the person
being alerted to something), or the theme (the person that others are
being alerted about)?

Are you saying that the semantic role played by {qen Heghbogh tlhIngan
SuvwI'} changes based on whether {Heghpu'bogh latlhpu'vaD} is present?
To me, that's weird. I don't think we've seen any examples of the
parts of a Klingon sentence changing their meaning when {chuvmey} are
added in front.

De'vID:
>> {SuvwI' qIpmoHlu' ra'wI'} **ducks**
>>
>> (btw the only canon example of {-moH} with {-lu'} I recall is
>> {chenmoHlu'meH Daq}, if you're looking for an example.)

SuStel:
> KGT:
>
> Soj raghmoHlu'
> The food has been decayed
> Someone has caused the food to decay
>
> Do'Ha'moHlu'
> be made unlucky
> someone/something causes [someone/something] to be unlucky
>
> DaDo'Ha'moHlu'
> You've been made unlucky

But {ragh} and {Do'} are both monovalent verbs. {-moH} increases the
valency by 1, and {-lu'} decreases it by 1.

With {qIp}, applying both {-moH} and {-lu'} should result in a
divalent verb (it's like applying {-'egh} with {-moH}). I was making a
joke about sticking a subject on a verb with {-moH}, because I had
earlier erred in stating that a verb with {-'egh} or {-chuq} can't
take an object (forgetting that {-moH} can change that), and now I'm
implying that a verb with {-lu'} can take a subject because of {-moH}.

There's probably some reason why that doesn't work, that I haven't thought of...

-- 
De'vID