[Tlhingan-hol] Objects, direct and indirect

[SuStel]

On 11/25/2015 11:14 AM, De'vID wrote:
> SuStel:
>>> {ra'wI'} is the causer—the {-moH} suffix tells us that. Since the prefix
>>> trick doesn't work for third-person objects, {SuvwI'} MUST be the agent.
>>> {SuvwI' qIpmoH ra'wI'} can only mean "the commander made the warrior hit
>>> (someone)."
>
> I'm not following your reasoning here.
>
> Going by the example from S20:
> {quHDaj qaw [wo'rIv]}
> {[wo'rIvvaD] quHDaj qawmoH Ha'quj}
>
> If the prefix trick doesn't work for third-person objects, that would
> prevent us from turning {wo'rIvvaD [quHDaj] qawmoH Ha'quj} into
> {wo'rIv qawmoH Ha'quj}. Thus, if we saw the sentence {wo'rIv qawmoH
> Ha'quj}, wouldn't it be the case that {wo'rIv} must be what you've
> called the "theme", and not the agent?

That's not the prefix trick. The prefix trick is only about making the 
verb prefix agree with an unstated first- or second-person indirect object.

>> The object of {ghuH} is the patient: the thing prepared for (from the gloss
>> "prepare for, be alerted to"). But the syntactic object in the S31 sentence,
>> the object of {ghuHmoH}, is *not* the patient, the thing prepared for.
>> Instead, it's the beneficiary, or causee, if I can use that term: those who
>> are being alerted. It's what one would have expected in the {-vaD} role if
>> one were to base the pattern on the {Ha'quj} sentence from S20.
>
> Exactly. Why doesn't it work like in S20?
>
> {[qen Heghbogh tlhIngan SuvwI'] ghuH Heghpu'bogh latlhpu'}
> {Heghpu'bogh latlhpu'vaD [tlhIngan SuvwI'] ghuHmoH bey}

Who says it doesn't? I'd say that works, though written out fully it'd 
be a real bear:

Heghpu'bogh latlhpu'vaD qen Heghbogh tlhIngan SuvwI' ghuHmoH bey

> (btw the only canon example of {-moH} with {-lu'} I recall is
> {chenmoHlu'meH Daq}, if you're looking for an example.)

KGT:

Soj raghmoHlu'
The food has been decayed
Someone has caused the food to decay

Do'Ha'moHlu'
be made unlucky
someone/something causes [someone/something] tob e unlucky

DaDo'Ha'moHlu'
You've been made unlucky

-- 
SuStel
http://trimboli.name