[Tlhingan-hol] A moment of clarity

Thu Nov 12 07:31:03 PST 2015

> when you say {Qapla’!} The word is NOT pronounced “ka-plaa”. The first
syllable is {Qap}, not {Qa} and the second syllable is {la’}, not
“plaaaaah”. Most actors in the movies mispronounce it.

thanks for pointing this out ; I was mispronouncing it !

On Thu, Nov 12, 2015 at 5:24 PM, Will Martin <lojmitti7wi7nuv at gmail.com>
wrote:

> Advice to anyone interested in becoming any kind of grammarian on this
> list: It helps to not be bothered by having others point out your errors.
> It took me years to learn this. This is a place where all your errors will
> come to light. Even ones that aren’t errors, but merely differences of
> opinion.
>
> But in this case, yes, it was an error. It should have been
> {Separtanganpu’}.
>
> And yes, I changed it because Klingons never initiate syllables with a
> consonant cluster. Keep this in mind, as a student of Klingon, when you say
> {Qapla’!} The word is NOT pronounced “ka-plaa”. The first syllable is
> {Qap}, not {Qa} and the second syllable is {la’}, not “plaaaaah”. Most
> actors in the movies mispronounce it.
>
> pItlh
> lojmIt tI'wI'nuv
>
>
>
> On Nov 12, 2015, at 6:52 AM, Karen Alessio <karenalessio at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> why not Separatangan for Spartan? I sort of thought "-ngan"was the ending
> for inhabitants of a place.
> I'm curious, still a beginner myself.
> On Nov 12, 2015 3:37 AM, "qunnoQ HoD" <mihkoun at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> > Let me know if you approve.
>>
>> it is a wonderful translation indeed ; still in cannot fully convey the
>> defiance of the original phrase.
>>
>> the beauty of the original phrase,the "molon lave" is that it is as
>> simple as can be,and that it is said in a calm,relaxed voice. (and that's
>> why I believe whoever heard it,must have been *very* pissed) It expresses
>> the culture Spartans had, a warrior's culture in which many and flamboyant
>> words were to be avoided. In fact I believe that Spartans were as close to
>> Klingons as can be. They (Spartans) hated luxury,training constantly for
>> war. And of course every Klingon would admire the fact,that 300 people
>> stood against an empire killing thousands (literally) in hand to hand
>> combat,achieving a glorious death in the end..
>>
>> > Separtanpu’
>>
>> why {Separtanpu'} and not {Spartanpu'} ?
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Nov 11, 2015 at 11:17 PM, Will Martin <lojmitti7wi7nuv at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> The issue I think you are struggling with is the crux of the difference
>>> between translating and encoding. If you try to take the closest words in
>>> one language to the closest words in another language and tie them together
>>> with the closest grammatical form that you can find in the second language,
>>> then you have encoded one message into another language.
>>>
>>> If you instead try to identify with the person who made the original
>>> statement and try to fully comprehend the MEANING of the original statement
>>> using the most effective vocabulary and grammar available to you in the
>>> second language, then you have a chance of translating the original message.
>>>
>>> After reading your extended explanation of the passions lost by trying
>>> to translate the ancient Greek into modern Greek, and trying to understand
>>> what you think is lost in the original, here’s my attempt at translation:
>>>
>>> Persian messenger: Separtanpu’! rejeyta’! nuHmeylIj tIchaghchugh vaj
>>> SuyIntaH ‘e’ wIchaw’qang.
>>>
>>> Leonidas: nuHmaj boSuqlaH’a’? ghotob jay’!
>>>
>>> Yes, I said things that were not in the original. I said things that
>>> were contextual and omitted, but present in the meaning of the statements.
>>> I don’t think it’s a bad thing to make it explicit in order to better
>>> convey the expressions.
>>>
>>> Let me know if you approve.
>>>
>>> pItlh
>>> lojmIt tI'wI'nuv
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> > On Nov 11, 2015, at 12:06 PM, qunnoQ HoD <mihkoun at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > A moment of clarity
>>> >
>>> > I just realized something,which i would like to share with the rest of
>>> the list,since i believe it will be of benefit to beginners,such as myself.
>>> This concerns something,which is well known to experienced
>>> klingonists,still it remains something that newcomers may find hard to
>>> digest. At least i was finding hard to digest myself,until the following
>>> happened.
>>> >
>>> > earlier today i was wondering how to translate in klingon king
>>> leonidas' response to the persian messenger,who asked him to surrender his
>>> arms ; i was wondering how to translate in klingon the "come and get them"
>>> which i believe more or less almost everyone has heard of.
>>> >
>>> > but as i was trying to figure out how to say this phrase in
>>> klingon,something didn't feel right.. It was not that I couldn't figure out
>>> the klingon translation. It was that I couldn't convey in klingon the
>>> "feeling" of this phrase. No matter what i did,it just didn't *feel* right.
>>> >
>>> > but then it hit me ! and the realization which followed,made things
>>> clearer in a most spectacular way. It was as if i was trying to find my way
>>> in a dark room,until suddenly the lights went on and everything became
>>> clearer.
>>> >
>>> > but first let me write some details,which are essential to this post.
>>> >
>>> > the actual phrase that king Leonidas spoke to the persian messenger,is
>>> "molon lave" in ancient greek. Every greek person,even one who doesn't know
>>> ancient greek,who will hear the "molon lave" will *feel* that this is as
>>> defiant a phrase,as it could be possibly be. In fact,many times myself i
>>> have wondered about the look on the persian's messenger face when he heard
>>> it. let alone the look on the xerxes face..
>>> >
>>> > but if one tries to translate this phrase in the greek people speak
>>> today,the "molon lave" will degrade to a mere "come and get them" which in
>>> no way does it retain even the slightest defiance/aggression as the
>>> original phrase did.
>>> >
>>> > ..and the even bigger problem is,that even if someone tried to find
>>> all kinds of workarounds/linguistic fixes then again,there is no way that
>>> modern greek could convey the outstanding (and that's an understatement)
>>> feeling of the original phrase.
>>> >
>>> > thinking all this,i asked myself..
>>> >
>>> > does the fact that modern greek fail to express the feeling of "molon
>>> lave",mean that modern greek are deficient ? and if i cannot translate in
>>> current greek such a simple phrase,then why should i demand that klingon
>>> would be in a position of expressing this phrase's feeling ?
>>> >
>>> > finally i realized,that one cannot expect any given language to be
>>> able to translate and express everything,and in the exact same way that any
>>> other language has to say. things don't work that way.
>>> >
>>> > anything written originally in a language (real or constructed) has
>>> its beauty expressed in exactly that original language. any possible
>>> inability to convey the same beauty in another language is not a sign of
>>> "deficiency" ; it is rather a natural consequence of the simple fact that
>>> languages are meant to be diverse. they are meant to be different,the same
>>> way that individual people are always different compared to each other.
>>> >
>>> > maybe this is the reason why chancellor gorkon's words,will always
>>> echo in our minds "..you have not experienced shakespeare,until you have
>>> read him in the original klingon.."
>>> >
>>> > be that as it may..
>>> >
>>> > SpartanS,nuHmeyraj tIchagh !
>>> > ghochol 'ej bIH tISuq !
>>> >
>>> > cpt qunnoQ
>>> >
>>> > _______________________________________________
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>>>
>>>
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>>
>>
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