[Tlhingan-hol] A moment of clarity

Thu Nov 12 07:24:09 PST 2015

Advice to anyone interested in becoming any kind of grammarian on this list: It helps to not be bothered by having others point out your errors. It took me years to learn this. This is a place where all your errors will come to light. Even ones that aren’t errors, but merely differences of opinion.

But in this case, yes, it was an error. It should have been {Separtanganpu’}.

And yes, I changed it because Klingons never initiate syllables with a consonant cluster. Keep this in mind, as a student of Klingon, when you say {Qapla’!} The word is NOT pronounced “ka-plaa”. The first syllable is {Qap}, not {Qa} and the second syllable is {la’}, not “plaaaaah”. Most actors in the movies mispronounce it.

pItlh
lojmIt tI'wI'nuv

> On Nov 12, 2015, at 6:52 AM, Karen Alessio <karenalessio at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> why not Separatangan for Spartan? I sort of thought "-ngan"was the ending for inhabitants of a place.
> I'm curious, still a beginner myself.
> 
> On Nov 12, 2015 3:37 AM, "qunnoQ HoD" <mihkoun at gmail.com <mailto:mihkoun at gmail.com>> wrote:
> > Let me know if you approve.
> 
> it is a wonderful translation indeed ; still in cannot fully convey the defiance of the original phrase.
> 
> the beauty of the original phrase,the "molon lave" is that it is as simple as can be,and that it is said in a calm,relaxed voice. (and that's why I believe whoever heard it,must have been *very* pissed) It expresses the culture Spartans had, a warrior's culture in which many and flamboyant words were to be avoided. In fact I believe that Spartans were as close to Klingons as can be. They (Spartans) hated luxury,training constantly for war. And of course every Klingon would admire the fact,that 300 people stood against an empire killing thousands (literally) in hand to hand combat,achieving a glorious death in the end..
> 
> > Separtanpu’
> 
> why {Separtanpu'} and not {Spartanpu'} ?
> 
> 
> 
> On Wed, Nov 11, 2015 at 11:17 PM, Will Martin <lojmitti7wi7nuv at gmail.com <mailto:lojmitti7wi7nuv at gmail.com>> wrote:
> The issue I think you are struggling with is the crux of the difference between translating and encoding. If you try to take the closest words in one language to the closest words in another language and tie them together with the closest grammatical form that you can find in the second language, then you have encoded one message into another language.
> 
> If you instead try to identify with the person who made the original statement and try to fully comprehend the MEANING of the original statement using the most effective vocabulary and grammar available to you in the second language, then you have a chance of translating the original message.
> 
> After reading your extended explanation of the passions lost by trying to translate the ancient Greek into modern Greek, and trying to understand what you think is lost in the original, here’s my attempt at translation:
> 
> Persian messenger: Separtanpu’! rejeyta’! nuHmeylIj tIchaghchugh vaj SuyIntaH ‘e’ wIchaw’qang.
> 
> Leonidas: nuHmaj boSuqlaH’a’? ghotob jay’!
> 
> Yes, I said things that were not in the original. I said things that were contextual and omitted, but present in the meaning of the statements. I don’t think it’s a bad thing to make it explicit in order to better convey the expressions.
> 
> Let me know if you approve.
> 
> pItlh
> lojmIt tI'wI'nuv
> 
> 
> 
> > On Nov 11, 2015, at 12:06 PM, qunnoQ HoD <mihkoun at gmail.com <mailto:mihkoun at gmail.com>> wrote:
> >
> >
> > A moment of clarity
> >
> > I just realized something,which i would like to share with the rest of the list,since i believe it will be of benefit to beginners,such as myself. This concerns something,which is well known to experienced klingonists,still it remains something that newcomers may find hard to digest. At least i was finding hard to digest myself,until the following happened.
> >
> > earlier today i was wondering how to translate in klingon king leonidas' response to the persian messenger,who asked him to surrender his arms ; i was wondering how to translate in klingon the "come and get them" which i believe more or less almost everyone has heard of.
> >
> > but as i was trying to figure out how to say this phrase in klingon,something didn't feel right.. It was not that I couldn't figure out the klingon translation. It was that I couldn't convey in klingon the "feeling" of this phrase. No matter what i did,it just didn't *feel* right.
> >
> > but then it hit me ! and the realization which followed,made things clearer in a most spectacular way. It was as if i was trying to find my way in a dark room,until suddenly the lights went on and everything became clearer.
> >
> > but first let me write some details,which are essential to this post.
> >
> > the actual phrase that king Leonidas spoke to the persian messenger,is "molon lave" in ancient greek. Every greek person,even one who doesn't know ancient greek,who will hear the "molon lave" will *feel* that this is as defiant a phrase,as it could be possibly be. In fact,many times myself i have wondered about the look on the persian's messenger face when he heard it. let alone the look on the xerxes face..
> >
> > but if one tries to translate this phrase in the greek people speak today,the "molon lave" will degrade to a mere "come and get them" which in no way does it retain even the slightest defiance/aggression as the original phrase did.
> >
> > ..and the even bigger problem is,that even if someone tried to find all kinds of workarounds/linguistic fixes then again,there is no way that modern greek could convey the outstanding (and that's an understatement) feeling of the original phrase.
> >
> > thinking all this,i asked myself..
> >
> > does the fact that modern greek fail to express the feeling of "molon lave",mean that modern greek are deficient ? and if i cannot translate in current greek such a simple phrase,then why should i demand that klingon would be in a position of expressing this phrase's feeling ?
> >
> > finally i realized,that one cannot expect any given language to be able to translate and express everything,and in the exact same way that any other language has to say. things don't work that way.
> >
> > anything written originally in a language (real or constructed) has its beauty expressed in exactly that original language. any possible inability to convey the same beauty in another language is not a sign of "deficiency" ; it is rather a natural consequence of the simple fact that languages are meant to be diverse. they are meant to be different,the same way that individual people are always different compared to each other.
> >
> > maybe this is the reason why chancellor gorkon's words,will always echo in our minds "..you have not experienced shakespeare,until you have read him in the original klingon.."
> >
> > be that as it may..
> >
> > SpartanS,nuHmeyraj tIchagh !
> > ghochol 'ej bIH tISuq !
> >
> > cpt qunnoQ
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Tlhingan-hol mailing list
> > Tlhingan-hol at kli.org <mailto:Tlhingan-hol at kli.org>
> > http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol <http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol>
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Tlhingan-hol mailing list
> Tlhingan-hol at kli.org <mailto:Tlhingan-hol at kli.org>
> http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol <http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol>
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Tlhingan-hol mailing list
> Tlhingan-hol at kli.org <mailto:Tlhingan-hol at kli.org>
> http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol <http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol>
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Tlhingan-hol mailing list
> Tlhingan-hol at kli.org
> http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://mail.kli.org/pipermail/tlhingan-hol/attachments/20151112/556aae40/attachment-0001.html>