[Tlhingan-hol] A moment of clarity

Thu Nov 12 03:52:14 PST 2015

why not Separatangan for Spartan? I sort of thought "-ngan"was the ending
for inhabitants of a place.
I'm curious, still a beginner myself.
On Nov 12, 2015 3:37 AM, "qunnoQ HoD" <mihkoun at gmail.com> wrote:

> > Let me know if you approve.
>
> it is a wonderful translation indeed ; still in cannot fully convey the
> defiance of the original phrase.
>
> the beauty of the original phrase,the "molon lave" is that it is as simple
> as can be,and that it is said in a calm,relaxed voice. (and that's why I
> believe whoever heard it,must have been *very* pissed) It expresses the
> culture Spartans had, a warrior's culture in which many and flamboyant
> words were to be avoided. In fact I believe that Spartans were as close to
> Klingons as can be. They (Spartans) hated luxury,training constantly for
> war. And of course every Klingon would admire the fact,that 300 people
> stood against an empire killing thousands (literally) in hand to hand
> combat,achieving a glorious death in the end..
>
> > Separtanpu’
>
> why {Separtanpu'} and not {Spartanpu'} ?
>
>
>
> On Wed, Nov 11, 2015 at 11:17 PM, Will Martin <lojmitti7wi7nuv at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> The issue I think you are struggling with is the crux of the difference
>> between translating and encoding. If you try to take the closest words in
>> one language to the closest words in another language and tie them together
>> with the closest grammatical form that you can find in the second language,
>> then you have encoded one message into another language.
>>
>> If you instead try to identify with the person who made the original
>> statement and try to fully comprehend the MEANING of the original statement
>> using the most effective vocabulary and grammar available to you in the
>> second language, then you have a chance of translating the original message.
>>
>> After reading your extended explanation of the passions lost by trying to
>> translate the ancient Greek into modern Greek, and trying to understand
>> what you think is lost in the original, here’s my attempt at translation:
>>
>> Persian messenger: Separtanpu’! rejeyta’! nuHmeylIj tIchaghchugh vaj
>> SuyIntaH ‘e’ wIchaw’qang.
>>
>> Leonidas: nuHmaj boSuqlaH’a’? ghotob jay’!
>>
>> Yes, I said things that were not in the original. I said things that were
>> contextual and omitted, but present in the meaning of the statements. I
>> don’t think it’s a bad thing to make it explicit in order to better convey
>> the expressions.
>>
>> Let me know if you approve.
>>
>> pItlh
>> lojmIt tI'wI'nuv
>>
>>
>>
>> > On Nov 11, 2015, at 12:06 PM, qunnoQ HoD <mihkoun at gmail.com> wrote:
>> >
>> >
>> > A moment of clarity
>> >
>> > I just realized something,which i would like to share with the rest of
>> the list,since i believe it will be of benefit to beginners,such as myself.
>> This concerns something,which is well known to experienced
>> klingonists,still it remains something that newcomers may find hard to
>> digest. At least i was finding hard to digest myself,until the following
>> happened.
>> >
>> > earlier today i was wondering how to translate in klingon king
>> leonidas' response to the persian messenger,who asked him to surrender his
>> arms ; i was wondering how to translate in klingon the "come and get them"
>> which i believe more or less almost everyone has heard of.
>> >
>> > but as i was trying to figure out how to say this phrase in
>> klingon,something didn't feel right.. It was not that I couldn't figure out
>> the klingon translation. It was that I couldn't convey in klingon the
>> "feeling" of this phrase. No matter what i did,it just didn't *feel* right.
>> >
>> > but then it hit me ! and the realization which followed,made things
>> clearer in a most spectacular way. It was as if i was trying to find my way
>> in a dark room,until suddenly the lights went on and everything became
>> clearer.
>> >
>> > but first let me write some details,which are essential to this post.
>> >
>> > the actual phrase that king Leonidas spoke to the persian messenger,is
>> "molon lave" in ancient greek. Every greek person,even one who doesn't know
>> ancient greek,who will hear the "molon lave" will *feel* that this is as
>> defiant a phrase,as it could be possibly be. In fact,many times myself i
>> have wondered about the look on the persian's messenger face when he heard
>> it. let alone the look on the xerxes face..
>> >
>> > but if one tries to translate this phrase in the greek people speak
>> today,the "molon lave" will degrade to a mere "come and get them" which in
>> no way does it retain even the slightest defiance/aggression as the
>> original phrase did.
>> >
>> > ..and the even bigger problem is,that even if someone tried to find all
>> kinds of workarounds/linguistic fixes then again,there is no way that
>> modern greek could convey the outstanding (and that's an understatement)
>> feeling of the original phrase.
>> >
>> > thinking all this,i asked myself..
>> >
>> > does the fact that modern greek fail to express the feeling of "molon
>> lave",mean that modern greek are deficient ? and if i cannot translate in
>> current greek such a simple phrase,then why should i demand that klingon
>> would be in a position of expressing this phrase's feeling ?
>> >
>> > finally i realized,that one cannot expect any given language to be able
>> to translate and express everything,and in the exact same way that any
>> other language has to say. things don't work that way.
>> >
>> > anything written originally in a language (real or constructed) has its
>> beauty expressed in exactly that original language. any possible inability
>> to convey the same beauty in another language is not a sign of "deficiency"
>> ; it is rather a natural consequence of the simple fact that languages are
>> meant to be diverse. they are meant to be different,the same way that
>> individual people are always different compared to each other.
>> >
>> > maybe this is the reason why chancellor gorkon's words,will always echo
>> in our minds "..you have not experienced shakespeare,until you have read
>> him in the original klingon.."
>> >
>> > be that as it may..
>> >
>> > SpartanS,nuHmeyraj tIchagh !
>> > ghochol 'ej bIH tISuq !
>> >
>> > cpt qunnoQ
>> >
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>>
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