[Tlhingan-hol] KLBC: moHaq mojaq DuHmey

Wed Dec 9 10:14:39 PST 2015

tuQaHmo',Hoch Savan.

Bellerophon 'ach..

DaH,chupmo' SuStel mu'tlheghmeyraj vIpoj. 'ach mumISmoH
mu'tlheghmeylIj. bIghItlh :

{QeD bopbogh ghItlhmey'e' vIqon qen 'e' vInIDtaH.}
{mu'mey vIchenmoHmeH <-ghach> vIlo'nIS SIbI' 'e' vItu'pu'.}

mich 5.4 mich 6.7 je vIlaD,'ach {qen} {SIbI'} je lo'lIj vIyajbe' ;
qatlh pa' Dalan ?

chomISqu'mo' 'ej jIghojnISqu'.. yIQIj'egh !

qun HoD

On Wed, Dec 9, 2015 at 4:56 PM, Will Martin <lojmitti7wi7nuv at gmail.com> wrote:
> ‘arHa: While you’ve done well, explaining basic principles, you seem to have
> missed one point:
>
> There are three kinds of words in Klingon: Nouns, Verbs, and chuvmey. Yes,
> you can talk about the different kinds of chuvmey, but the point worth
> paying attention to is that nouns take noun suffixes, verbs take verb
> prefixes and suffixes, and chuvmey… well, most chuvmey stand alone, and
> those that don’t are exceptional and need to be treated as exceptional.
> Pronouns can never be treated as if they actually were nouns or verbs. They
> can hold the role of a noun or a verb and use SOME suffixes, but not most of
> them.
>
> There are no Klingon words that can sometimes be used as nouns and sometimes
> be used as verbs. There are merely some Klingon nouns that are pronounced
> exactly like other Klingon words that happen to be verbs, and since our
> spelling is phonetic, we spell the noun and the verb the same. But they are
> not the same word. Note that in TKD, all homophones of different word type
> are separate entries. It’s not like in the Oxford English Dictionary where
> one word may have multiple entries, some of which are noun and others of
> which are verb. That’s not how it works in Klingon.
>
> Think of it the way that an English dictionary would list two different
> words for “wind” because of the different pronunciations, despite being
> spelled the same way. Well, in Klingon, even though some words are spelled
> and pronounced identically, they are not listed as one word because of the
> difference in part of speech.
>
> qun HoD: Verb prefixes are useless unless they are attached to a verb. You
> don’t attach them to pronouns or affixes, or anything except verbs. They are
> exclusively used on verbs.
>
> Verb suffixes are primarily used on verbs. SOME of them can also be used on
> pronouns, but most of them can’t. Consider what the meaning would be.
> Similarly, when “be X” verbs are used adjectivally, SOME verb suffixes can
> be used, but most can’t. Okrand gives us the example {yIHmey lI’be’}, so we
> know that {-be’} can be used on a verb used adjectivally. But he declared
> {lo’laH} as a separate verb from {lo’ + -laH}, so we know that you can’t use
> {-laH} on verbs used adjectivally.
>
> The purpose of the language is to express meaning, not just to use the
> affixes like Tonka Toys or Lego blocks to see how ridiculously you can
> extend things until they break.
>
> I really think that as a new person to the language, your focus should be
> more on having something you wish to express and learn the tools you need to
> express that meaning well. It should not be on how you can pile together
> affixes on anything you feel like sticking them to and then trying to figure
> out what it would mean, if it were meaningful (and quite often, it isn’t).
>
> SOME noun suffixes can be placed on pronouns, when they are being used
> grammatically as nouns. Buy a clue. A singular pronoun can’t take a plural
> noun suffix, for example. Don’t bother putting one on a plural pronoun,
> either. You’ll only irritate the Klingon you are speaking to, and that’s not
> generally considered wise.
>
> So, instead of trying to come up with a reason to put affixes on pronouns,
> why not spend a little time learning how to say specific things in Klingon?
> Start with the thing you want to say and THEN explore the tools you want to
> use to say them. Start out simple and then build to more complex ideas. The
> Klingon you learn this way will stick better and become more applicable to
> your future use of the language.
>
> It’s closer to the way that toddlers learn, and they learn faster than you
> will if you start out plastering affixes on everything and then trying to
> figure out what it would mean.
>
> pItlh
> lojmIt tI'wI'nuv
>
>
>
> On Dec 8, 2015, at 12:29 PM, John R. Harness <cartweel at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I admit that I can't keep all of those mojaqmey and moHaqmey straight. But,
> looking at your examples, I think I can answer the following:
>
> 1. No, you can not attach a verb prefix directly to a verb suffix ({vIqang}
> means "I pour", not "I am willing.") Sometimes, though, the suffix happens
> to match a legal verb root: {vIlaH} for example. {vIvIp} is illegal, on the
> other hand.
>
> 2. No, you can't attach noun suffixes to verb prefixes. ({vIvaD} means "I am
> flexible" not "I {do something} for the benefit of {something})
>
> 3. YES, you can attach verb suffixes to pronouns: {jIHtaH} is legal. ({jIH}
> is acting as a verb here.)
>
> 4. YES, you can attach a noun suffixes to pronouns: {jIHvaD, maHDaq} are
> legal. There may be some restrictions here (perhaps only Type 5 suffixes are
> allowed?) but I am unsure as some combinations make a bit of sense to me,
> but others do not.
>
> _________
>
>
> Let me explain some basic principles, and raise a few questions. These are
> basically questions about how prefixes and suffixes can be attached to nouns
> and verbs.
>
> The basic guiding principle is that Klingon makes a distinction between
> words that are nouns and words that are verbs (though there are some words
> that can act as either at different times). Most simply, noun suffixes can
> attach only to nouns and verb prefixes and suffixes can attach only to
> verbs. If a word can sometimes be a noun and sometimes be a verb, the way
> that it is being used in a sentence will be made clear by what sort of
> affixes are attached to it. Pronouns can be used as nouns and as verbs.
>
> This is complicated by affixes that turn a verb into a noun like {-wI'} and
> {-ghach}. When one of these Type 9 verb suffixes are applied, the entire
> verb becomes a noun and from then can take any legal noun suffixes. (NB:
> Always keep in mind the proper ordering of the suffixes.)
>
> This is what I don't know for sure: Can a verb that becomes a noun with
> {-ghach} or {-wI'} have a prefix still on it? In other words, are these
> legal/how would you translate them?
>
> -{*choSuvHa'ghach} - (Your mis-fighting of me?)
> -{*HIDevwI'} .... ? You, one who leads me?
>
> I welcome discussion from all.
>
> 'arHa
>
>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 3
>> Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2015 15:36:30 +0200
>> From: mayql qunenoS <mihkoun at gmail.com>
>> To: tlhIngan Hol mailing list <tlhingan-hol at kli.org>
>> Subject: [Tlhingan-hol] KLBC: moHaq mojaq DuHmey
>> Message-ID:
>>
>> <CAP7F2cJ-ROAC99VDn11fwCAvvMAoeCVZYigXYGEDE76_xq9eeA at mail.gmail.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
>>
>> 'arHa' qavan.
>>
>> qaghel :
>>
>> 1.wot moHaq wot mojaq je,vImuvlaH ? (ghantoHmey : jItaH,vIqang..)
>> 2.wot moHaq DIp mojaq je,vImuvlaH ? (ghantoHmey : jIDaq,vIvaD..)
>> 3.moHaq wot mojaq je,vImuvlaH ? (ghantoHmey : jIHtaH,maHqang..)
>> 4.moHaq DIp mojaq je,vImulaH ? (ghantoHmey : jIHDaq,SoHvaD..)
>>
>> qun HoD
>
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