[Tlhingan-hol] KLBC: moHaq mojaq DuHmey

Wed Dec 9 06:56:06 PST 2015

‘arHa: While you’ve done well, explaining basic principles, you seem to have missed one point:

There are three kinds of words in Klingon: Nouns, Verbs, and chuvmey. Yes, you can talk about the different kinds of chuvmey, but the point worth paying attention to is that nouns take noun suffixes, verbs take verb prefixes and suffixes, and chuvmey… well, most chuvmey stand alone, and those that don’t are exceptional and need to be treated as exceptional. Pronouns can never be treated as if they actually were nouns or verbs. They can hold the role of a noun or a verb and use SOME suffixes, but not most of them.

There are no Klingon words that can sometimes be used as nouns and sometimes be used as verbs. There are merely some Klingon nouns that are pronounced exactly like other Klingon words that happen to be verbs, and since our spelling is phonetic, we spell the noun and the verb the same. But they are not the same word. Note that in TKD, all homophones of different word type are separate entries. It’s not like in the Oxford English Dictionary where one word may have multiple entries, some of which are noun and others of which are verb. That’s not how it works in Klingon.

Think of it the way that an English dictionary would list two different words for “wind” because of the different pronunciations, despite being spelled the same way. Well, in Klingon, even though some words are spelled and pronounced identically, they are not listed as one word because of the difference in part of speech.

qun HoD: Verb prefixes are useless unless they are attached to a verb. You don’t attach them to pronouns or affixes, or anything except verbs. They are exclusively used on verbs.

Verb suffixes are primarily used on verbs. SOME of them can also be used on pronouns, but most of them can’t. Consider what the meaning would be. Similarly, when “be X” verbs are used adjectivally, SOME verb suffixes can be used, but most can’t. Okrand gives us the example {yIHmey lI’be’}, so we know that {-be’} can be used on a verb used adjectivally. But he declared {lo’laH} as a separate verb from {lo’ + -laH}, so we know that you can’t use {-laH} on verbs used adjectivally. 

The purpose of the language is to express meaning, not just to use the affixes like Tonka Toys or Lego blocks to see how ridiculously you can extend things until they break.

I really think that as a new person to the language, your focus should be more on having something you wish to express and learn the tools you need to express that meaning well. It should not be on how you can pile together affixes on anything you feel like sticking them to and then trying to figure out what it would mean, if it were meaningful (and quite often, it isn’t).

SOME noun suffixes can be placed on pronouns, when they are being used grammatically as nouns. Buy a clue. A singular pronoun can’t take a plural noun suffix, for example. Don’t bother putting one on a plural pronoun, either. You’ll only irritate the Klingon you are speaking to, and that’s not generally considered wise.

So, instead of trying to come up with a reason to put affixes on pronouns, why not spend a little time learning how to say specific things in Klingon? Start with the thing you want to say and THEN explore the tools you want to use to say them. Start out simple and then build to more complex ideas. The Klingon you learn this way will stick better and become more applicable to your future use of the language.

It’s closer to the way that toddlers learn, and they learn faster than you will if you start out plastering affixes on everything and then trying to figure out what it would mean.

pItlh
lojmIt tI'wI'nuv

> On Dec 8, 2015, at 12:29 PM, John R. Harness <cartweel at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> I admit that I can't keep all of those mojaqmey and moHaqmey straight. But, looking at your examples, I think I can answer the following:
> 
> 1. No, you can not attach a verb prefix directly to a verb suffix ({vIqang} means "I pour", not "I am willing.") Sometimes, though, the suffix happens to match a legal verb root: {vIlaH} for example. {vIvIp} is illegal, on the other hand.
> 
> 2. No, you can't attach noun suffixes to verb prefixes. ({vIvaD} means "I am flexible" not "I {do something} for the benefit of {something})
> 
> 3. YES, you can attach verb suffixes to pronouns: {jIHtaH} is legal. ({jIH} is acting as a verb here.)
> 
> 4. YES, you can attach a noun suffixes to pronouns: {jIHvaD, maHDaq} are legal. There may be some restrictions here (perhaps only Type 5 suffixes are allowed?) but I am unsure as some combinations make a bit of sense to me, but others do not.
> 
> _________
> 
> 
> Let me explain some basic principles, and raise a few questions. These are basically questions about how prefixes and suffixes can be attached to nouns and verbs.
> 
> The basic guiding principle is that Klingon makes a distinction between words that are nouns and words that are verbs (though there are some words that can act as either at different times). Most simply, noun suffixes can attach only to nouns and verb prefixes and suffixes can attach only to verbs. If a word can sometimes be a noun and sometimes be a verb, the way that it is being used in a sentence will be made clear by what sort of affixes are attached to it. Pronouns can be used as nouns and as verbs.
> 
> This is complicated by affixes that turn a verb into a noun like {-wI'} and {-ghach}. When one of these Type 9 verb suffixes are applied, the entire verb becomes a noun and from then can take any legal noun suffixes. (NB: Always keep in mind the proper ordering of the suffixes.)
> 
> This is what I don't know for sure: Can a verb that becomes a noun with {-ghach} or {-wI'} have a prefix still on it? In other words, are these legal/how would you translate them?
> 
> -{*choSuvHa'ghach} - (Your mis-fighting of me?)
> -{*HIDevwI'} .... ? You, one who leads me?
> 
> I welcome discussion from all.
> 
> 'arHa
> 
>  
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 3
> Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2015 15:36:30 +0200
> From: mayql qunenoS <mihkoun at gmail.com <mailto:mihkoun at gmail.com>>
> To: tlhIngan Hol mailing list <tlhingan-hol at kli.org <mailto:tlhingan-hol at kli.org>>
> Subject: [Tlhingan-hol] KLBC: moHaq mojaq DuHmey
> Message-ID:
>         <CAP7F2cJ-ROAC99VDn11fwCAvvMAoeCVZYigXYGEDE76_xq9eeA at mail.gmail.com <mailto:CAP7F2cJ-ROAC99VDn11fwCAvvMAoeCVZYigXYGEDE76_xq9eeA at mail.gmail.com>>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
> 
> 'arHa' qavan.
> 
> qaghel :
> 
> 1.wot moHaq wot mojaq je,vImuvlaH ? (ghantoHmey : jItaH,vIqang..)
> 2.wot moHaq DIp mojaq je,vImuvlaH ? (ghantoHmey : jIDaq,vIvaD..)
> 3.moHaq wot mojaq je,vImuvlaH ? (ghantoHmey : jIHtaH,maHqang..)
> 4.moHaq DIp mojaq je,vImulaH ? (ghantoHmey : jIHDaq,SoHvaD..)
> 
> qun HoD
> _______________________________________________
> Tlhingan-hol mailing list
> Tlhingan-hol at kli.org
> http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://mail.kli.org/pipermail/tlhingan-hol/attachments/20151209/ef4308d2/attachment-0001.html>