[Tlhingan-hol] Beginners corner

Wed Aug 5 12:43:31 PDT 2015

vImugh ‘e’ vInID is the sentence I would have chosen, too. I was impressed that Maxim wrote the whole question in Klingon, and I understood the meaning, so I answered the question without correcting the grammar of the question itself.

Beginners, I hope you’re not intimidated by the enthusiasm with which the group offers corrections and advice here.  We’re passionate about the language and want everything written in it to be as good as it can be.  We’d rather If you want coaching on your Klingon but are hesitant to expose your first efforts to such scrutiny, most of us will be quite willing to answer your e-mails privately. You can see our e-mail addresses in the headers of e-mail we send to the list, and pick someone to e-mail.  

- Qov

From: Elizabeth Lawrence [mailto:elizabeth.lawrence08 at gmail.com] 
Sent: August 5, 2015 8:55
Cc: tlhIngan Hol mailing list
Subject: Re: [Tlhingan-hol] Beginners corner

I'd like to offer an alternative translation for mugh jInID.  While -meH is a perfectly acceptable way to render it, I would personally tend to use 'e', which is used for a sentence-as-object.  I would say either 

jImugh 'e' vInID - I try to translate (lit. I attempt that I translate)

or 

vImugh 'e' vInID - I try to translate it (lit. I attempt that I translate it)

In this case, I might even say

mu'tlheghvam vImugh 'e' vInID - I try to translate this sentence

You will find that you often have to recast your thoughts in order to translate into Klingon; as Qov said, it is often more useful to say something that carries the same meaning than to attempt a word-for-word translation.  There are often multiple ways to do this, and which you choose to use can sometimes be a matter of preference, or of fine shades of meaning.

yImughchu'

be''etlh

On Wed, Aug 5, 2015 at 8:32 AM, Will Martin <lojmitti7wi7nuv at gmail.com> wrote:

Qov answered you well. Until someone else is assigned the role of Beginners’ Grammarian, she gets first dibs. As a former BG, myself, I fondly remember when I was first learning the language and Captain Krankor answered my questions and patiently set me on the path to learning the warrior tongue.

I’ll continue to a greater depth in response to your post. Please do not misinterpret my actions as negativity or criticism. The language is impossible to learn all at once, and anyone who tries, as you have, to say a variety of things will stumble into aspects of the language that might not be obvious, and your attempts to explore this will give you even more insight into the language.

You wrote {mugh jInID.} Since you didn’t provide an English translation, I have to guess a little, though it looks a lot like you wanted to say, “I try to translate.” The problem is with “to translate”. That’s what’s called an “infinitive”. It’s a form of the verb that has no subject. Klingon doesn’t have infinitives.

With one exception that I know of, Klingon never uses a verb without a subject. That exception is the {-meH} clause. When you add {-meH} to a verb, that verb states the purpose of the main verb, or of a noun. The classic example of it modifying a noun is {ghojmeH taj}. We’d call it a “beginner’s knife”, but the literal translation is more like “an in-order-to-learn knife” or “a knife whose purpose is to learn”.

So, thinking through the statement “I try to translate,” you could recast that idea as “In order that I translate, I try,” or “the purpose of my attempt is to translate.” {mughmeH jInID.} You could also say {jImughmeH jInID}. The canon examples we have of verbs with {-meH} are not perfectly consistent, though the pattern that I have learned is that when a {-meH} clause modifies a main clause, (giving the purpose of an action), the verb with {-meH} may or may not have a subject and/or object. The presence or absence of a subject seem to work fine. But when a {-meH} verb modifies a noun, it is far more common for there to be no subject or object implied, so no prefix on the verb (like {ghojmeH taj}).

Next, your use of prefix in {jIchenmoH} is unusual. Literally, {chenmoH} means “cause to form.” To say, “I cause to form” is odd because it doesn’t have much meaning if there isn’t something that I am causing to form. You need an object. The prefix for “I cause it to form” is {vI-}, so I would have expected you to say {vIchenmoH}. Consider that as an option.

Similarly, going back earlier, you could have said {vImughmeH jInID}. “In order that I translate it, I try,” or “I try with the purpose that I translate it.” It sounds stilted in English only because I’m favoring something closer to a literal translation for teaching purposes. When we translate it, we usually make it more like English and say, “I’ll try to translate it,” which is grammatically very different from the Klingon because this is a case where English and Klingon lack parallel grammar.

Lastly, you said {choQaH}, which is perfectly formed, but probably doesn’t quite mean what you intended. It is a statement. “You help me.” If you want it to be a command, there’s a different prefix for that: {HIQaH.} “Help me."

I hope this is helpful to you. Don’t feel even the slightest bit bad for not already knowing all this stuff, and don’t expect to learn it all at once. We are delighted to see you trying. It is much better to stumble, attempting to walk, than it is to safely sit and never learn to walk.

pItlh

lojmIt tI'wI'nuv

On Aug 4, 2015, at 4:00 AM, Maxim Sonin <maxim.sonin at gmail.com> wrote:

"We are not angels, boy": mugh jInID.
"loDHom, Qulpu' maHbe'": jIchenmoH.
choQaH.

_______________________________________________
Tlhingan-hol mailing list
Tlhingan-hol at kli.org
http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol

_______________________________________________
Tlhingan-hol mailing list
Tlhingan-hol at kli.org
http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://mail.kli.org/pipermail/tlhingan-hol/attachments/20150805/d18191c4/attachment.html>