[Tlhingan-hol] Beginners corner

[Elizabeth Lawrence]

I'd like to offer an alternative translation for mugh jInID.  While -meH is
a perfectly acceptable way to render it, I would personally tend to use
'e', which is used for a sentence-as-object.  I would say either

jImugh 'e' vInID - I try to translate (lit. I attempt that I translate)

or

vImugh 'e' vInID - I try to translate it (lit. I attempt that I translate
it)

In this case, I might even say

mu'tlheghvam vImugh 'e' vInID - I try to translate this sentence

You will find that you often have to recast your thoughts in order to
translate into Klingon; as Qov said, it is often more useful to say
something that carries the same meaning than to attempt a word-for-word
translation.  There are often multiple ways to do this, and which you
choose to use can sometimes be a matter of preference, or of fine shades of
meaning.

yImughchu'

be''etlh

On Wed, Aug 5, 2015 at 8:32 AM, Will Martin <lojmitti7wi7nuv at gmail.com>
wrote:

> Qov answered you well. Until someone else is assigned the role of
> Beginners’ Grammarian, she gets first dibs. As a former BG, myself, I
> fondly remember when I was first learning the language and Captain Krankor
> answered my questions and patiently set me on the path to learning the
> warrior tongue.
>
> I’ll continue to a greater depth in response to your post. Please do not
> misinterpret my actions as negativity or criticism. The language is
> impossible to learn all at once, and anyone who tries, as you have, to say
> a variety of things will stumble into aspects of the language that might
> not be obvious, and your attempts to explore this will give you even more
> insight into the language.
>
> You wrote {mugh jInID.} Since you didn’t provide an English translation, I
> have to guess a little, though it looks a lot like you wanted to say, “I
> try to translate.” The problem is with “to translate”. That’s what’s called
> an “infinitive”. It’s a form of the verb that has no subject. Klingon
> doesn’t have infinitives.
>
> With one exception that I know of, Klingon never uses a verb without a
> subject. That exception is the {-meH} clause. When you add {-meH} to a
> verb, that verb states the purpose of the main verb, or of a noun. The
> classic example of it modifying a noun is {ghojmeH taj}. We’d call it a
> “beginner’s knife”, but the literal translation is more like “an
> in-order-to-learn knife” or “a knife whose purpose is to learn”.
>
> So, thinking through the statement “I try to translate,” you could recast
> that idea as “In order that I translate, I try,” or “the purpose of my
> attempt is to translate.” {mughmeH jInID.} You could also say {jImughmeH
> jInID}. The canon examples we have of verbs with {-meH} are not perfectly
> consistent, though the pattern that I have learned is that when a {-meH}
> clause modifies a main clause, (giving the purpose of an action), the verb
> with {-meH} may or may not have a subject and/or object. The presence or
> absence of a subject seem to work fine. But when a {-meH} verb modifies a
> noun, it is far more common for there to be no subject or object implied,
> so no prefix on the verb (like {ghojmeH taj}).
>
> Next, your use of prefix in {jIchenmoH} is unusual. Literally, {chenmoH}
> means “cause to form.” To say, “I cause to form” is odd because it doesn’t
> have much meaning if there isn’t something that I am causing to form. You
> need an object. The prefix for “I cause it to form” is {vI-}, so I would
> have expected you to say {vIchenmoH}. Consider that as an option.
>
> Similarly, going back earlier, you could have said {vImughmeH jInID}. “In
> order that I translate it, I try,” or “I try with the purpose that I
> translate it.” It sounds stilted in English only because I’m favoring
> something closer to a literal translation for teaching purposes. When we
> translate it, we usually make it more like English and say, “I’ll try to
> translate it,” which is grammatically very different from the Klingon
> because this is a case where English and Klingon lack parallel grammar.
>
> Lastly, you said {choQaH}, which is perfectly formed, but probably doesn’t
> quite mean what you intended. It is a statement. “You help me.” If you want
> it to be a command, there’s a different prefix for that: {HIQaH.} “Help me."
>
> I hope this is helpful to you. Don’t feel even the slightest bit bad for
> not already knowing all this stuff, and don’t expect to learn it all at
> once. We are delighted to see you trying. It is much better to stumble,
> attempting to walk, than it is to safely sit and never learn to walk.
>
> pItlh
> lojmIt tI'wI'nuv
>
>
>
> On Aug 4, 2015, at 4:00 AM, Maxim Sonin <maxim.sonin at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> "We are not angels, boy": mugh jInID.
> "loDHom, Qulpu' maHbe'": jIchenmoH.
> choQaH.
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