[Tlhingan-hol] {X net Y} vs. {X 'e' Y-lu'}

[David Trimboli]

On 1/1/2012 3:42 PM, De'vID jonpIn wrote:

> Because MO uses both {X net Y} and {X 'e' Y-lu'} in Klingon Monopoly,
> and there aren't that many sentences, I'm not convinced that the use
> of {X 'e' Y-lu'} is an error.

I am convinced it is an error, but one which Okrand has by now 
recognized and decided "what the hell." I don't think he has carefully 
thought through the meanings you suggest. If he's considered it at all, 
I would expect the answer to be "it's an error that has become so common 
that it's acceptable to say it either way." (Which is a shame because it 
suggests that {net} will disappear from Klingon from disuse, rather like 
"whom" in English.)

> Here are the sentences from Klingon Monopoly of the form {X 'e'
> Y-lu'}:
>
> {Qang QanmeH yan 'ISletlh Damuv 'e' wIvlu'.} "You are chosen to
> serve on the Yan-Isleth and protect the Chancellor."
>
> {DIvI' rojmab qep ghanglu' 'e' nIDlu', 'ach taH qep.} "Despite
> efforts to halt them, peace talks with Federation continue."
>
> Here are the sentences from Klingon Monopoly of the form {X net Y}:
>
> {Duj ghajchugh pagh, beylI'vo' 'oH Daje' net chaw'.} {HoSHal
> ghajchugh pagh, beylI'vo' 'oH Daje' net chaw'.} Both of these are
> translated as "If unowned, you may buy it from the Bank."
>
> In an earlier thread ("Klingon Monopoly: another card"), I
> speculated that {X net Y} and {X 'e' Y-lu'} have slightly different
> meanings. Namely, {X net Y} implies no relationship between the
> indefinite subjects of the verbs {X} and {Y}, whereas {X 'e' Y-lu'}
> implies that the subject of {X} is the subject of {Y} (the object of
> {Y-lu'}). And in particular, {W-lu' 'e' Y-lu'} implies that {W-lu'}
> and {Y-lu'} share the same indefinite subject.

Hang on. Your terminology is all wrong. X does not have an indefinite
subject; only Y does. Y does not have a subject; what you mean to refer
to is a semantic role, such as patient. An indefinite subject cannot be
shared: to be indefinite is not to have an identity.

> That is, I think {Damuv 'e' wIvlu'} means "you are chosen to join"
> (similar to {Damuv; SoH DawIvlu'}, whereas {Damuv net wIv} means "it
> is chosen, you join" (similar to {Damuv; 'oH wIvlu'}).

I don't see any difference in meaning between "you are chosen to join"
and "it is chosen: you join."

-- 
SuStel
http://www.trimboli.name/