[Tlhingan-hol] {X net Y} vs. {X 'e' Y-lu'}

[De'vID jonpIn]

De'vID:
>> Because MO uses both {X net Y} and {X 'e' Y-lu'} in Klingon Monopoly,
>> and there aren't that many sentences, I'm not convinced that the use
>> of {X 'e' Y-lu'} is an error.

SuStel:
> I am convinced it is an error, but one which Okrand has by now recognized
and decided "what the hell." I don't think he has carefully thought through
the meanings you suggest. If he's considered it at all, I would expect the
answer to be "it's an error that has become so common that it's acceptable
to say it either way." (Which is a shame because it suggests that {net}
will disappear from Klingon from disuse, rather like "whom" in English.)

Yes, that would be a shame.  But that is the nature of all true languages,
I suppose.

De'vID:
>> In an earlier thread ("Klingon Monopoly: another card"), I
>> speculated that {X net Y} and {X 'e' Y-lu'} have slightly different
>> meanings. Namely, {X net Y} implies no relationship between the
>> indefinite subjects of the verbs {X} and {Y}, whereas {X 'e' Y-lu'}
>> implies that the subject of {X} is the subject of {Y} (the object of
>> {Y-lu'}). And in particular, {W-lu' 'e' Y-lu'} implies that {W-lu'}
>> and {Y-lu'} share the same indefinite subject.

SuStel:
> Hang on. Your terminology is all wrong. X does not have an indefinite
> subject; only Y does. Y does not have a subject; what you mean to refer
> to is a semantic role, such as patient. An indefinite subject cannot be
> shared: to be indefinite is not to have an identity.

I find it difficult to talk about {-lu'} since what would normally be the
subject becomes the object.  I think an indefinite subject can be shared:
you do not know (or do not specify) who it is, but you can still know it is
the same one as in another context.

The examples from TKW illustrate what I mean:
{yInlu'taH 'e' bajnISlu'}
{yay chavlu' 'e' bajnISlu'}

The indefinite subject ("one") of {bajnISlu'} is the same as that of
{yInlu'taH} in the first example and {yay chavlu'} in the second.  That is,
"one must earn that one (the same one) continues to live".  If it had been
{yInlu'taH net bajnIS}, it would mean "one must earn that one (possibly a
different one) continues to live".  That is, the TKW sentence has the sense
of "one's OWN survival must be earned", not "survival (survival in general,
someone else's survival) must be earned".

I'm possibly (and probably) overthinking this, though. :-)

De'vID:
>> That is, I think {Damuv 'e' wIvlu'} means "you are chosen to join"
>> (similar to {Damuv; SoH DawIvlu'}, whereas {Damuv net wIv} means "it
>> is chosen, you join" (similar to {Damuv; 'oH wIvlu'}).

SuStel:
> I don't see any difference in meaning between "you are chosen to join"
> and "it is chosen: you join."

I do.  But again, perhaps I am seeing a difference that isn't there, or
placing an undeserved emphasis on a trivial difference.

{Damuv 'e' wIvlu'} is like {Damuv; SoH DawIvlu'}, in that {SoH} is what's
chosen.  That is, "You are chosen to join, you are chosen (out of a pool of
candidates for membership) to join".

{Damuv net wIv} is like {Damuv; 'oH wIvlu'}, in that {Damuv} is what's
chosen.  That is, "It is chosen that you join it, it is chosen (out of all
potential courses of action) that you join it".  Perhaps you have just
performed a heroic deed worthy of several possible rewards: joining the Yan
Isleth, receiving the Star of Kahless, being given command of your own
squadron, and so on.  But someone higher up and unknown to you (perhaps the
Chancellor, perhaps the High Council, or some other shadowy figure) has
decided that you join the Yan Isleth.  {Damuv net wIv}, it is chosen that
you join the Yan Isleth.  {yan 'ISletlh Damuv} is chosen, out of the
possibilities.

Again, I'm aware that I'm backfitting a meaning that may not have been
intended.  I guess I tend to lean towards being a bit generous in
evaluating MO's carefulness/skill, which may or may not be warranted.

--
De'vID
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