[Tlhingan-hol] voDleH Sut chu' [original header was mangled]

[De'vID jonpIn]

loghaD:
>> *Is <DaHjaj vaj> the right order? vaj DaHjaj FEELS better, but I think
that's because I'm used to "thus" being used as a conjunction, not an
adverb.

Qov:
> Geez, I've been thinking of it as a conjunction, and always put it before
the timestamp. I hope you're wrong about it going after and that what feels
right is right. Oh Steven, is there canon with vaj before a timestamp?  I
doubt it, because you generally need to be writing a fair amount of
narrative before you have a need for such a thing. Before the asterisk, I
read {DaHjaj vaj* De' lI' vIghoj} as "Today I learn useful warrior
information."  Which made perfect sense, because back when I wrote my
beginner column for HolQeD, each lesson was presented with battle metaphors.

vIlaDDI', "warrior information" vIyaj jIH je.

qatlh {vaj} nungnIS {DaHjaj}?  pab chut tu'lu''a'?

Qov:
> At least the corrected versions are on the blog. Maybe I'll re-edit it
with corrections and release it as an e-book. Is that possible without
going through a publisher?

HIja'.  Qatlhqu'be'.

loghaD:
>> > So it should be {paghna'vaD vIt 'e' ngIl} ?

Qov:
>> > "He dared to tell the truth regarding nothing at all."  Still escapes
>> > me.  Do we need {'e' ngIlbe'} instead?

chay' {ngIl} lo'lu'?

wa' chovnatlhqoq neH vISam: {qab jIH n(a)gIl}.  "Face me if you dare"
'oSlaw'.  par Hol 'oHbej.  *bleck*

latlh chovnatlh wIghaj'a'?

loghaD:
>> I interpret <paghna'vaD vIt> as "tell the truth to nobody at all". I
take it you regard the receiver of the truthtelling as the object rather
than the beneficiary?

Qov:
> I didn't understand {paghna'vaD} there as meaning "no one." I was stuck
trying to understand it as nothing at all. I don't think "He dared tell no
one" should be translated with the negative in the same place in Klingon. I
think it's like the {chIch HoHbe'} example and it should be {vay'vaD vIt
'e' ngIlbe'}.
>
> I hope others will read this and comment so it's not just my take you're
getting.

{vay'vaD vItvIp}.  pagh {vItvIp} neH.  pItlh.

{paghna'vaD vIt} vIyajHa' jIH je.  {vIt, 'ej vay' Soq paghna'} 'e'
Hechlaw'.  (i.e., "He tells the truth, to the benefit of definitely no
one"; or "He tells the truth, to no one at all" -- chaq vaS'a'Daq vIt
jachqu', 'ach jachtaHvIS chImchu' vaS'a' 'ej Qoy pagh.)

wa' DoS wIqIp Qov jIH je, qechvam 'oSmeH {vay'vaD vangbe'} qaq law'
{paghvaD vang} qaq puS.

Qov:
>> > Like if I say {chIch HoHbe'} to translate "She didn't kill him on
>> > purpose," when really it means "She deliberately did not kill him,"
>> > and I need {bong HoH} to be sure of transmitting my meaning.  I still
>> > make this error.

loghaD:
>> I'd like to agree with you, but there are some canonical sentences that
make me wonder. For instance:
>>
>> Hoch DaSopbe'chugh batlh bIHeghbe' - Eat everything or you will die
without honor.
>>
>> Like you, I'd expect batlh Heghbe' to mean "You non-die honorably" or
"You honorably go on living", but that doesn't seem to be the case.

'ach tlhInganpu'vaD SuvwI'pu' qan tu'lu'be.  Hegh Hoch.  vaj mujbej {batlh
[Heghbe']}, 'ej lughbej {[batlh Hegh]be'}.  {batlh [bIHeghbe']} jatlh
neHchugh vay', {batlh bIyIn} jatlhlaH.

Qov:
> Damn. I hate that one. I can actually say that it proves the point that
such things can be ambiguous. At any rate Klingon is clearer with fewer
negatives or the negative on the thing that really needs negating. We can
have the same thing in English, really. One could read "She didn't kill him
on purpose" differently depending on whether he was dead or not. Indeed it
might make a good chapter cliffhanger. "Wait, did she just accidentally
kill him, or did she pull that blow?"

loghaD:
>> I seem to recall there were other examples, but that's the only one I
can remember right now. If it IS the only one, perhaps one can put it aside.

ghaytan mu'tlheghvam rur {nom yIghoSqu'}.  {[nom yIghoS]qu'} 'oSlaw', {nom
yI[ghoSqu']} 'oSbe'law'.

--
De'vID
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