[Tlhingan-hol] voDleH Sut chu' [original header was mangled]

[Qov]

At 11:19 08/02/2012, you wrote:
>Very nice; I've been wanting to use expressions like ben law' and 
>Hu' puS for some time, DaHjaj vaj* De' lI' vIghoj.
>
>*Is <DaHjaj vaj> the right order? vaj DaHjaj FEELS better, but I 
>think that's because I'm used to "thus" being used as a conjunction, 
>not an adverb.

Geez, I've been thinking of it as a conjunction, and always put it 
before the timestamp. I hope you're wrong about it going after and 
that what feels right is right. Oh Steven, is there canon with vaj 
before a timestamp?  I doubt it, because you generally need to be 
writing a fair amount of narrative before you have a need for such a 
thing. Before the asterisk, I read {DaHjaj vaj* De' lI' vIghoj} as 
"Today I learn useful warrior information."  Which made perfect 
sense, because back when I wrote my beginner column for HolQeD, each 
lesson was presented with battle metaphors.

(Off topic story of why I wrote that column: for those who weren't 
there, or those who were there but who don't notice how easily I can 
be manipulated: at qep'a' ... I think it was around loSDIch or 
vaghDIch ... there was a discussion about the accessibility of HolQeD 
to beginners. It was considered to erudite to hold their 
attention.  When the discussion became interminable, I said, "Fine, 
beginning next issue I will write a column that presents Klingon 
language concepts assuming no knowledge of the language, just a copy 
of TKD." So yeah, however many years of writing a quarterly column 
just to get out of one meeting. Totally worth it.)

> >What is the English that makes you so intent to get across the
> > feeling of them hiding in the crowd? Many people enter the city.
> > Probably lots of them are up to no good. Two of them are going to con
> > the voDleH.  I'm not saying 'elwI'pu'Daq can't be understood as
> > among. I'm just telling you the ideas that I have to visit to get there.
>
>Not really "hiding" in the crowd; more a sense that in the hustle 
>and bustle of this prosperous city, it's easy for tricksters to slip 
>in unnoticed (without really even trying).
>That being said, if it requires an explanation in English, it's 
>probably not an ideal expression :P

It's just that their tricksterism isn't written on their person, like 
an extra arm. They can stride in through the gates unaccompanied 
without being suspected, so the work you're going to to convey their 
enfoldment in the crowd seems unnecessary.

> >Hey, have you seen one of my installments go out without a stupid
> >typo?  I let your story there shame me a little. I should be doing
> >cleaner work.
>
>Sorry to say I haven't been keeping up; I plan to save them all to 
>an e-reader and bring them with me the next time I take a long vacation :)

At least the corrected versions are on the blog. Maybe I'll re-edit 
it with corrections and release it as an e-book. Is that possible 
without going through a publisher?

> > So it should be {paghna'vaD vIt 'e' ngIl} ?
> >
> > "He dared to tell the truth regarding nothing at all."  Still escapes
> > me.  Do we need {'e' ngIlbe'} instead?
>
>I interpret <paghna'vaD vIt> as "tell the truth to nobody at all". I 
>take it you regard the receiver of the truthtelling as the object 
>rather than the beneficiary?

I didn't understand {paghna'vaD} there as meaning "no one." I was 
stuck trying to understand it as nothing at all. I don't think "He 
dared tell no one" should be translated with the negative in the same 
place in Klingon. I think it's like the {chIch HoHbe'} example and it 
should be {vay'vaD vIt 'e' ngIlbe'}.

I hope others will read this and comment so it's not just my take 
you're getting.

> > Like if I say {chIch HoHbe'} to translate "She didn't kill him on
> > purpose," when really it means "She deliberately did not kill him,"
> > and I need {bong HoH} to be sure of transmitting my meaning.  I still
> > make this error.
>
>I'd like to agree with you, but there are some canonical sentences 
>that make me wonder. For instance:
>
>Hoch DaSopbe'chugh batlh bIHeghbe' - Eat everything or you will die 
>without honor.
>
>Like you, I'd expect batlh Heghbe' to mean "You non-die honorably" 
>or "You honorably go on living", but that doesn't seem to be the case.

Damn. I hate that one. I can actually say that it proves the point 
that such things can be ambiguous. At any rate Klingon is clearer 
with fewer negatives or the negative on the thing that really needs 
negating. We can have the same thing in English, really. One could 
read "She didn't kill him on purpose" differently depending on 
whether he was dead or not. Indeed it might make a good chapter 
cliffhanger. "Wait, did she just accidentally kill him, or did she 
pull that blow?"

>I seem to recall there were other examples, but that's the only one 
>I can remember right now. If it IS the only one, perhaps one can put it aside.
>
> > ghunchu'wI' hits me with sticks.
>
>'oy'naQ lo'be'chugh not nenghep Dalop.

'oy' vItIvqu'. muquvmoH ngIq 'oy'.

> > {QI' much} would be a ... one of those things where the soldiers line
> > up and the visiting general or queen walks by and says very nice,
> > what's the English? I think it might also be "parade," but {QI' much}
> > is definitely more like the ... are you old enough to remember May
> > Day in the Soviet Union?
>
>I had a similar thought, although in my head I was also imagining a 
>general giving a PowerPoint presentation to the President.

DaH jIHaghqu'mo' jIHwIjDaq tlhepQe' tu'lu', but that's a much potlh, 
not a much'a', unless he's projecting it on the moon or something.

> > are you old enough to remember May
> > Day in the Soviet Union?
>
>tlhoS.

You've probably seen it in old video footage, anyway.

>Oh, hey, I just realized that tlhoS is a pun!
>#latetotheparty

DaH jIHwIj vISay'nISqu'.

>Good point.
>Actually, I regard this translation as a bit of a warm-up exercise 
>for doing a more proper reinterpretation of the story.

chong! vaj vIlaDqa'meH 'eb vItIvlaH.

> > > I don't even get "the there nobility"  in English.
> >Basically, the idea is that it's "the nobility pertaining to there",
> >which is to say those that are present.
>
> > Ah, as in the original was "The assembled nobles" or the like. Feel
> > free to escape from words that make the Klingon more complicated and
> > less clear.
>
>Actually, I find the idea of writing things like <mulegh naDev 
>'avwI'> ("the guard here sees me") and <muDuQ pa' nagh beQ> ("the 
>painting over there speaks to me") as being remarkably elegant.

Those two are more readable for me, but I had to pause a moment to 
distinguish between {muDuQ pa'} and {muDuQpa'} as it happened to fall 
on a line boundary, and apparently I'm still conditioned to read 
across line breaks as though they weren't necesarily at whitespace.

>although admittedly it's hardly supported by canon and there are 
>certainly other ways to do it (such as simply moving the naDev/pa' 
>to the beginning of the phrase).

There can be contexts where it makes more sense to bind more closely 
to the noun. pa' is more of a problem because of its multiple 
meanings, I guess.

> > bIcheghDI' jIQuch.
>vaj yIQuch!

jIQuch.

- Qov