[Tlhingan-hol] KLBC: {-'e'} and {-bogh}

[qov at kli.org]

I did mean this to go to the list, so people can see that it has been answered, and so that lurkers can get the benefit. I didn't delete anything in the attributed text. Comments inline.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: mayql qunenoS [mailto:mihkoun at gmail.com]
> Sent: January 21, 2016 9:48
> To: qov at kli.org
> Subject: Re: [Tlhingan-hol] KLBC: {-'e'} and {-bogh}
> 
> > I must admit that the sentence you have written isn't completely out
> > of the realm of grammatical because it effectively says:
> > "As for the manager who put in the staple that made me bleed, s/he is
> > sorry."
> > But you kind of got lucky there, didn't you?
> 
> yes I did ! hehehe
> 
> > It's fine to simply say {povjaj} to mean "on Tuesday"
> 
> thanks, good to know.
> 
> > I think you're ready to teach this to others now. 'arHa, next time a
> > beginner asks about {-'e'}, delegate qunnoq HoD to answer. :-)
> 
> hehehe. I'm very happy to finally come to understand the {-'e'}. So far, it has
> been the most difficult part of grammar for me to understand.
> 
> > We have to get you to qep'a' or
> > Quvar qep'a', so you can practice speaking as well as writing.
> 
> I would like that too, however I doubt anyone would understand me. I bet
> my greek accent superimposed on Klingon, would really mess things up.

It will be glorious.  It is excellent to all different  accents speaking Klingon, to show what mistakes we are making.  Do not be afraid to speak up and tell people that they have a German or American accent in Klingon. We all want Klingon accents, but we end up with American ones because of who the dominant speakers are. it is very important to have different first languages among our speakers.

> > If you're looking for a new challenge, you might consider writing a
> > story or a description of a picture. Find one that interests you and
> > describe it, with a link. A couple that caught my eye:
> 
> ok, as soon as I find the time, I would definitely like to try that, however
> these pictures look way too complicated for my current Klingon level.

Write whatever you like. I simply suggest that once you have gone through all the bits of grammar in TKD, the best way to find out what else you need to know is to write thoughts, as opposed to writing grammar. Here's an easy one:

http://875357559f655c0fd9842374.eventingnation.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/Black-Cat-Sitting-On-Horse-Wallpapers.jpg
 
> anyway, thank you very-very much Qov, for teaching me the use of {-'e'} !
> Without your help, there is no way I would have ever understood it !

I wonder how many people never dare to ask enough questions to understand it.  I look forward to having the KLI mailing list well-indexed so that future generations of learners can follow your journey.

> ps : Did you intend your last mail (the mail to which I'm answering) to get
> through to the list ? Because it has only been addressed to me, and not to
> the tlhIngan Hol list.
> 
> 
> 
> On Thu, Jan 21, 2016 at 7:01 PM,  <qov at kli.org> wrote:
> >> jIH :
> >>
> >> > moH yang ghIHmo' toqwIn'e' laSta'bogh 'aj.
> >> > The only way I can think of this making any sense, is if the {-'e'}
> >> > was removed from the {toqwIn} and placed on the {'aj}. Then we
> >> > would have the meaning <The image of the rubber stamp is ugly,
> >> > because the admiral who inked up the stamp was careless.>
> >>
> >> Qov :
> >>
> >> > You don't like the current meaning of "The stamp mark is ugly
> >> > because the rubber stamp that the admiral inked up is messy"?  I
> >> > accept it if you reject that sentence.  I wanted to use yang laS
> >> > and toqwIn in a sentence and messed around a bit to find a way to
> >> > cram them in with a -
> >> bogh clause.
> >>
> >> I can't believe I missed this ! Thank you, for clarifying the
> >> intented
> > meaning.
> >
> > Daj. {-bogh} lo'bogh mu'tlhegh DaleghDI', {-'e'} lo'be'chugh, reH
> > {-bogh} Dechbogh cha' DIpmey'e' tIqel. chaq qaq wa'. chaq DuH cha'.
> >>
> >> ok.. here are the rest of the sentences :
> >>
> >> The girl who likes copper fell from the jungle gym.
> >> toSwI' qal'aqvo' pum Sorpuq parHa'bogh be'Hom'e'
> >
> > maj.
> >
> >> I drop the unprocessed silver that the miner found.
> >> SIrIly tlhol'e' tu'bogh tlhIlwI' vIchagh (I drop the unprocessed
> >> silver
> > which was
> >> found by the miner)
> >
> > maj.
> >
> >> The man who owns the mine pays the miner who brings the gold.
> >> qol'om qembogh tlhIlwI''e' DIl tlhIlHal ghajbogh loD
> >
> > maj. ghaytan DIlbe'mo' tlhIlHal'e', {-'e'} cha'DIch Danop.
> >
> >> The brave captain uses robot-destroying logic.  [Hint: "logic which
> >> can
> > destroy
> >> a robot"] qoq Qaw'laHbogh meq'e' lo' HoD yoH (logic is used by the
> >> brave captain,which logic is able to destroy the robot)
> >
> > maj.
> >
> >> Ammunition that pierces an exterior wall may kill an innocent neighbour.
> >> jIl chun HoHlaHlaw' reD ghIDlaHbogh nIch'e'.
> >
> > Interesting suffixes.  Your grammar is correct, and there may be
> > instances where that Klingon sentence does exactly translate the
> > English meaning. I was thinking more:
> >
> > chaq jIl chun HoH reD ghIDbogh nIch'e'.
> >
> > but the resultant meaning of the two sentences is not greatly divergent.
> > the issue is not with Klingon, but with the number of different ways
> > English "may" can be interpreted. It would be a stretch because of the
> > context, but one could even translate it :
> >
> > jIl chun HoH reD ghIDbogh nIch'e' net chaw'.
> >
> > ... in some kind of dystopian society.
> >
> >> (ammunition which is able to pierce an exterior wall, is apparently
> >> able
> > to kill
> >> an innocent neighbour). At first I would be tempted to say, that the
> > {-'e'}
> >> here isn't necessary, because how could a wall kill someone ? But
> >> then I realized, that we could place the {-'e'} on the {reD} if we
> >> wanted to
> > specify
> >> that the wall (debris) as a result of wall piercing ammunition are
> >> the
> > ones
> >> which do the killing.
> >
> > maj. If you didn't specify, most people would assume the nIch was the
> > deadly item, but there isn't anything wrong with specifying.  I just
> > find it robotic and pedantic when people ALWAYS specify the head noun,
> > explicitly denote plurals, and provide pronouns.
> >
> >> The manager who put in the staple that made me bleed is sorry.
> >> mureghmoHbogh Ha'on vevpu'bogh vu'wI''e', QoS.
> >
> > RULE #1! OVS please.
> >
> > I must admit that the sentence you have written isn't completely out
> > of the realm of grammatical because it effectively says:
> >
> > "As for the manager who put in the staple that made me bleed, s/he is
> > sorry."
> >
> > But you kind of got lucky there, didn't you?
> >
> >> Here I need to ask something we have not discussed in this thread so
> >> far ;
> > In
> >> a single sentence, can I have two {-'e'} ? For instance here, could I
> > write too :
> >> {mureghmoHbogh Ha'on'e' vevpu'bogh vu'wI''e', QoS.} ?
> >> <the manager who put in the staple, the staple that made me bleed, is
> >> sorry> ?
> >
> > I'd read that as sentence fragments, like:
> >
> > "Regarding the staple that made me bleed, the manager that put it in,
> > they are sorry."  Or something like that.
> >
> > There's no written rule about how many {-'e'}mey you can have, so try
> > writing a sentence that uses correct word order and getting two -'e'
> > in it chained in a way that makes sense to you, and we'll see if we can parse
> it.
> >
> >> Maybe if we don't specify the staple by the use of {-'e'} there could
> >> be confusion as to who is the one, who actually made me bleed ; the
> >> manager or the staple ? I realize that as far as the meaning is
> >> concerned there is
> > no
> >> difference, but I'm asking just in the case we would want to
> >> absolutely express that it is the staple that made me bleed.
> >
> > Usually in a case like that you'd write more than one sentence, but
> > I'm not discounting the possibility that you could use two -'e' in a
> > way that made things better and not worse.
> >
> >> On Tuesday I will present the spreadsheet which consists of columns.
> >> qaStaHvIS povjaj, warmey yughbogh wa'chaw''e' vI'ang
> >
> > It's fine to simply say {povjaj} to mean "on Tuesday"
> >
> >> On Wednesday the rows of the spreadsheet which annoy my father will
> >> be deleted. [change to "I will delete" if you don't know the -lu'
> >> suffix
> > yet].
> >> qaStaHvIS ghItlhjaj, vavwI' lunuQbogh wa'chaw wevmey, lughItlhHa'lu'.
> >
> > majQa'.
> >
> >> I don't think here that the {-'e'} is needed, because the only thing
> >> that
> > can be
> >> erased is the spread sheet rows, and not my father ; let alone that
> >> on the
> > last
> >> verb {lughItlhHa'lu'} we have the {lu-}. Unless of course by saying
> > <erased>,
> >> one would mean <kill>, case in which be placing the {-'e'} on
> >> {vavwI'} we would mean <while wednesday is happening, my father who
> >> was annoyed by the spreadsheet rows, will be
> >> killed>. hehehe..
> >> Well,ok.. The man was annoyed by the spreadsheet rows, but what the
> >> ghe'tor ! Is this reason enough for someone to "erase" him ?!?!
> >> hehehe Anyway, I didn't find a word for <delete> so I used {ghItlhHa'}..
> >
> > {ghItlhHa'} is a beautiful choice. I really like it. You could also
> > use {vevHa'} or {polHa'}. I was thinking of {vevHa'}, 'a  {ghItlhHa'} vImaS.
> >
> >> Before the festival you and your sister feed the animals that will be
> > killed by
> >> the crowd.
> >
> >> qaSpa' yupma', Ha'DIbaHmey'e' HoHbogh ghom'a' boje' SoH be'nI'lI' je
> >
> > majQa'!  A lot of people miss getting the correct prefix in a compound
> > sencond person subject like that.
> >
> >> Obviously here the {-'e'} is needed because the {bo-} could imply
> >> either
> > the
> >> animals or the crowd, so we need to use the {-'e'} to specify that
> >> the
> > animals
> >> are the ones to be fed.
> >
> > I think you're ready to teach this to others now. 'arHa, next time a
> > beginner asks about {-'e'}, delegate qunnoq HoD to answer. :-)
> >
> >> The artery cut by the ceremonial knife sprays blood on the street.
> >> tawDaq, 'Iw ghay mej'aD'e' pe'bogh taj SeQ
> >
> >> I don't think the {-'e'} is actually
> >> needed here, because a knife can't spray blood.
> >
> > Yet there is no harm in putting it in.  We have to get you to qep'a'
> > or Quvar qep'a', so you can practice speaking as well as writing.
> >
> >> A group of sentences Qov writes quickly becomes violent.
> >> nom ralchoH mu'tlheghmey ghom'e' ghItlhbogh Qov (A group of
> sentences
> >> written by Qov quickly becomes violent). The {-'e'} is needed to
> >> specify
> > that
> >> it is the group of sentences that becomes violent.
> >
> > maj. ralchoHbe' Qov. I would have said {mu'tlhegh ghom} rather than
> > {mu'tlheghmey ghom} simply because we have some precedent for groups
> > of things being an {X ghom} as opposed to an {Xmey ghom}: tIjwI' ghom,
> QujwI'
> > ghom, even mu'ghom.
> >
> > If you're looking for a new challenge, you might consider writing a
> > story or a description of a picture. Find one that interests you and
> > describe it, with a link. A couple hat caught my eye:
> >
> > http://www.bing.com/az/hprichbg/rb/KakhetiaGeorgia_EN-
> CA8989448452_192
> > 0x1080
> > .jpg
> >
> > http://www.wikiart.org/en/albrecht-altdorfer/the-battle-of-issus-1529?
> > utm_so
> >
> urce=returned&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=referral#supersized
> -art
> > istPai
> > ntings-244643
> >
> > You might have plenty to say without that, but you may have noticed
> > some discussion lately about people being bored with each other's
> > repetitive stories, so I thought I'd suggest a way to mix it up a
> > little. It would be fun to read someone's description, gather a
> > picture in my mind, and then click the link and see how much of the
> > picture, and the mood, I got from the text.
> >
> > - Qov
> >
> >> qunnoq HoD
> >>
> >> On Wed, Jan 20, 2016 at 9:27 PM,  <qov at kli.org> wrote:
> >> >> I only had time to work on the translation of the klingon
> >> >> sentences, so
> >> > here it
> >> >> is :
> >> >
> >> > Only do as many as you want to.  When you know you've got it, you
> >> > can move on to another fun piece of grammar.
> >> >>
> >> >> {HejwI' vem'e' tu'bogh Hoqra' qon yaS.} <The officer recorded the
> >> >> rober's tracks which were found by the
> >> > tricorder.>
> >> >> I don't think that we put place the {-'e'} anywhere else here. If
> >> >> it was
> >> > placed
> >> >> on the {Hoqra'} the meaning would be <The officer recorded the
> >> >> tricorder, which found the rober's tracks>. I don't think this
> >> >> makes sense in
> >> > english.
> >> >
> >> > maj.
> >> >
> >> >> {'IH Hoqra' 'uchbogh yaS'e'.}
> >> >> <The officer who holds the tricorder is beautiful.> Same here. I
> >> >> don't
> >> > think
> >> >> we put place {-'e'} on {Hoqra'}. Then we would have <The tricorder
> >> >> which
> >> > is
> >> >> held by the officer is beautiful>.
> >> >> Maybe, a tech freak could characterize a tricorder as being "beautiful"
> >> > but
> >> >> still..
> >> >
> >> > 'IH could also be translated as handsome, lovely, or the like.  In
> >> > fact I almost wrote two sentences on this, one in praise of the
> >> > tricorder and one for the officer.
> >> >
> >> >> {QI' yaS ghaH yaS'e' Ho'bogh loDnI'lI'.} <The officer who is
> >> >> admired by
> >> > your
> >> >> brother is a military officer.> Maybe here we could place the
> >> >> {-'e'} on {loDnI'lI'} ; then we would get <Your brother who
> >> >> admires the officer, is
> >> > a
> >> >> military officer>.
> >> >
> >> > maj.
> >> >
> >> >> {QI yaS ghaH'a' QI 'avbogh nuv'e'?} <is the person who guards the
> >> >> bridge, a bridge officer?> I don't think we could put here the
> >> >> {-'e'} on the second {QI}, because then we would be asking if the
> >> >> bridge is a bridge officer.
> >> >
> >> > Hee, hee. I didn't even think of that. I was just making a sort of
> >> > joke, because in English when we say "bridge officer" we always
> >> > mean
> >> "meH yaS".
> >> >
> >> >> Doq meyrI''e' yughbogh loS reD 'Impey pIrmuS 'a SuD ra'Duchmey
> >> >> Dabogh Dopmey.
> >> >> <The square is red which consists the four sided pyramid bottom,
> >> >> however the sides which act in the manner of the triangles are SuD
> >> >> (green,blue,yellow).> I guess we could place the {-'e'} on pIrmuS,
> >> >> if we wanted to indicate that the bottom is red. On the second
> >> >> sentence (after
> >> > the
> >> >> {'a}) I don't think that the {-'e'} could be placed anywhere,
> >> >> because the
> >> > sides
> >> >> are the triangles as well, so there isn't anything to distinguish
> >> >> or
> >> > clarify to the
> >> >> listener.
> >> >
> >> > majQa'.  It's a kind of confusing sentence. meqlIj vInaD.
> >> >
> >> >> moH yang ghIHmo' toqwIn'e' laSta'bogh 'aj.
> >> >> The only way I can think of this making any sense, is if the
> >> >> {-'e'} was
> >> > removed
> >> >> from the {toqwIn} and placed on the {'aj}. Then we would have the
> >> >> meaning <The image of the rubber stamp is ugly, because the
> >> >> admiral who inked up the stamp was careless.>
> >> >
> >> > You don't like the current meaning of "The stamp mark is ugly
> >> > because the rubber stamp that the admiral inked up is messy"?  I
> >> > accept it if you reject that sentence.  I wanted to use yang laS
> >> > and toqwIn in a sentence and messed around a bit to find a way to
> >> > cram them in with a -
> >> bogh clause.
> >> >
> >> >> {pIm 'uSqan'e' lo'bogh no'ma'.}
> >> >> <The iron which was used by our ancestors is different.> I think
> >> >> we could place here the {-'e'} on {no'ma'} thus having <Our
> >> >> ancestors who used iron were different>.
> >> >
> >> > maj.
> >> >
> >> >> Hopefully, tomorrow I will have the time to translate the english
> >> > sentences
> >> >> too..
> >> >
> >> > They will probably be harder, because there is more room for you to
> >> > make mistakes, but you seem to understand the process now.
> >> >
> >> >> cpt qunnoq
> >> >>
> >> >> On Wed, Jan 20, 2016 at 12:30 PM, mayql qunenoS
> >> <mihkoun at gmail.com>
> >> >> wrote:
> >> >> >> You have no more created passive voice in Klingon than you have
> >> >> >> created
> >> >> >> type-5 suffixes in English. When you translate, you use the
> >> >> >> tools the language has. If I can use a ladder to get things off
> >> >> >> high shelves in my house and you stand on a dog in your house,
> >> >> >> the fact that I could reach the marmalade  for breakfast this
> >> >> >> morning does not imply the spontaneous appearance of a dog in
> my kitchen.
> >> >> >> Different tools, same job, even if I sometimes refer to your
> >> >> >> dog as a ladder, and you sometimes refer to my ladder as a dog.
> >> >> >> (Also some people will complain that it's stupid that you stand
> >> >> >> on a dog, and your house can't be taken seriously as a real
> >> >> >> house until whoever built it gets
> >> > you a
> >> >> ladder).
> >> >> >
> >> >> > This is a beautiful explanation ! Believe it or not, I had
> >> >> > suspected that something like this must be going on, but I asked
> >> >> > anyway in order to make certain. This whole thing reminds me of
> >> >> > something SuStel had told me, not so long ago, when I had
> >> >> > difficulty understanding why the indefinite subject isn't
> >> >> > actually passive voice, however we often choose to translate it
> >> >> > as passive voice. If memory serves my right, he had said that I
> >> >> > was confusing the literal translation with the actual meaning
> >> >> > (or something like
> > that).
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Anyway, I think I understand now, so I will start working on
> >> >> > your last group of sentences and post them here soon.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > cpt qunnoq
> >> >> >
> >> >> > On Wed, Jan 20, 2016 at 8:12 AM, Anthony Appleyard
> >> >> > <a.appleyard at btinternet.com> wrote:
> >> >> >> This comma in English written relative senteces likely
> >> >> >> corresponds to a slight hesitation in speech.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> ----Original message----
> >> >> >> From : lojmitti7wi7nuv at gmail.com
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>>  ...
> >> >> >>> In English, we differentiate parenthetical from identifying
> >> >> >>> clauses by using a comma with parenthetical clauses, but
> >> >> >>> omitting the comma for a clause that identifies the specific
> >> >> >>> item. Klingon apparently does not differentiate between these
> >> >> >>> two types of
> >> relative clauses.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> _______________________________________________
> >> >> >> Tlhingan-hol mailing list
> >> >> >> Tlhingan-hol at kli.org
> >> >> >> http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol
> >> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> _______________________________________________
> >> >> Tlhingan-hol mailing list
> >> >> Tlhingan-hol at kli.org
> >> >> http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > _______________________________________________
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> >>
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> >