[Tlhingan-hol] KLBC: {-'e'} and {-bogh}

[mayql qunenoS]

jIH :

> moH yang ghIHmo' toqwIn'e' laSta'bogh 'aj.
> The only way I can think of this making any sense, is if the {-'e'}
> was removed from the {toqwIn} and placed on the {'aj}. Then we would
> have the meaning <The image of the rubber stamp is ugly, because the
> admiral who inked up the stamp was careless.>

Qov :

> You don't like the current meaning of "The stamp mark is ugly because the
> rubber stamp that the admiral inked up is messy"?  I accept it if you reject
> that sentence.  I wanted to use yang laS and toqwIn in a sentence and messed
> around a bit to find a way to cram them in with a -bogh clause.

I can't believe I missed this ! Thank you, for clarifying the intented meaning.

ok.. here are the rest of the sentences :

The girl who likes copper fell from the jungle gym.
toSwI' qal'aqvo' pum Sorpuq parHa'bogh be'Hom'e'

I drop the unprocessed silver that the miner found.
SIrIly tlhol'e' tu'bogh tlhIlwI' vIchagh
(I drop the unprocessed silver which was found by the miner)

The man who owns the mine pays the miner who brings the gold.
qol'om qembogh tlhIlwI''e' DIl tlhIlHal ghajbogh loD

The brave captain uses robot-destroying logic.  [Hint: "logic which can
destroy a robot"]
qoq Qaw'laHbogh meq'e' lo' HoD yoH
(logic is used by the brave captain,which logic is able to destroy the robot)

Ammunition that pierces an exterior wall may kill an innocent neighbour.
jIl chun HoHlaHlaw' reD ghIDlaHbogh nIch'e'
(ammunition which is able to pierce an exterior wall, is apparently
able to kill an innocent neighbour). At first I would be tempted to
say, that the {-'e'} here isn't necessary, because how could a wall
kill someone ? But then I realized, that we could place the {-'e'} on
the {reD} if we wanted to specify that the wall (debris) as a result
of wall piercing ammunition are the ones which do the killing.

The manager who put in the staple that made me bleed is sorry.
mureghmoHbogh Ha'on vevpu'bogh vu'wI''e', QoS.
Here I need to ask something we have not discussed in this thread so
far ; In a single sentence, can I have two {-'e'} ? For instance here,
could I write too :
{mureghmoHbogh Ha'on'e' vevpu'bogh vu'wI''e', QoS.} ?
<the manager who put in the staple, the staple that made me bleed, is sorry> ?
Maybe if we don't specify the staple by the use of {-'e'} there could
be confusion as to who is the one, who actually made me bleed ; the
manager or the staple ? I realize that as far as the meaning is
concerned there is no difference, but I'm asking just in the case we
would want to absolutely express that it is the staple that made me
bleed.


On Tuesday I will present the spreadsheet which consists of columns.
qaStaHvIS povjaj, warmey yughbogh wa'chaw''e' vI'ang


On Wednesday the rows of the spreadsheet which annoy my father will be
deleted. [change to "I will delete" if you don't know the -lu' suffix yet].
qaStaHvIS ghItlhjaj, vavwI' lunuQbogh wa'chaw wevmey, lughItlhHa'lu'.
I don't think here that the {-'e'} is needed, because the only thing
that can be erased is the spread sheet rows, and not my father ; let
alone that on the last verb {lughItlhHa'lu'} we have the {lu-}. Unless
of course by saying <erased>, one would mean <kill>, case in which be
placing the {-'e'} on {vavwI'} we would mean <while wednesday is
happening, my father who was annoyed by the spreadsheet rows, will be
killed>. hehehe..
Well,ok.. The man was annoyed by the spreadsheet rows, but what the
ghe'tor ! Is this reason enough for someone to "erase" him ?!?! hehehe
Anyway, I didn't find a word for <delete> so I used {ghItlhHa'}..


Before the festival you and your sister feed the animals that will be killed
by the crowd.
qaSpa' yupma', Ha'DIbaHmey'e' HoHbogh ghom'a' boje' SoH be'nI'lI' je
Obviously here the {-'e'} is needed because the {bo-} could imply
either the animals or the crowd, so we need to use the {-'e'} to
specify that the animals are the ones to be fed.


The artery cut by the ceremonial knife sprays blood on the street.
tawDaq, 'Iw ghay mej'aD'e' pe'bogh taj SeQ
I don't think the {-'e'} is actually needed here, because a knife
can't spray blood.


A group of sentences Qov writes quickly becomes violent.
nom ralchoH mu'tlheghmey ghom'e' ghItlhbogh Qov
(A group of sentences written by Qov quickly becomes violent). The
{-'e'} is needed to specify that it is the group of sentences that
becomes violent.

qunnoq HoD

On Wed, Jan 20, 2016 at 9:27 PM,  <qov at kli.org> wrote:
>> I only had time to work on the translation of the klingon sentences, so
> here it
>> is :
>
> Only do as many as you want to.  When you know you've got it, you can move
> on to another fun piece of grammar.
>>
>> {HejwI' vem'e' tu'bogh Hoqra' qon yaS.}
>> <The officer recorded the rober's tracks which were found by the
> tricorder.>
>> I don't think that we put place the {-'e'} anywhere else here. If it was
> placed
>> on the {Hoqra'} the meaning would be <The officer recorded the tricorder,
>> which found the rober's tracks>. I don't think this makes sense in
> english.
>
> maj.
>
>> {'IH Hoqra' 'uchbogh yaS'e'.}
>> <The officer who holds the tricorder is beautiful.> Same here. I don't
> think
>> we put place {-'e'} on {Hoqra'}. Then we would have <The tricorder which
> is
>> held by the officer is beautiful>.
>> Maybe, a tech freak could characterize a tricorder as being "beautiful"
> but
>> still..
>
> 'IH could also be translated as handsome, lovely, or the like.  In fact I
> almost wrote two sentences on this, one in praise of the tricorder and one
> for the officer.
>
>> {QI' yaS ghaH yaS'e' Ho'bogh loDnI'lI'.} <The officer who is admired by
> your
>> brother is a military officer.> Maybe here we could place the {-'e'} on
>> {loDnI'lI'} ; then we would get <Your brother who admires the officer, is
> a
>> military officer>.
>
> maj.
>
>> {QI yaS ghaH'a' QI 'avbogh nuv'e'?}
>> <is the person who guards the bridge, a bridge officer?> I don't think we
>> could put here the {-'e'} on the second {QI}, because then we would be
>> asking if the bridge is a bridge officer.
>
> Hee, hee. I didn't even think of that. I was just making a sort of joke,
> because in English when we say "bridge officer" we always mean "meH yaS".
>
>> Doq meyrI''e' yughbogh loS reD 'Impey pIrmuS 'a SuD ra'Duchmey Dabogh
>> Dopmey.
>> <The square is red which consists the four sided pyramid bottom, however
>> the sides which act in the manner of the triangles are SuD
>> (green,blue,yellow).> I guess we could place the {-'e'} on pIrmuS, if we
>> wanted to indicate that the bottom is red. On the second sentence (after
> the
>> {'a}) I don't think that the {-'e'} could be placed anywhere, because the
> sides
>> are the triangles as well, so there isn't anything to distinguish or
> clarify to the
>> listener.
>
> majQa'.  It's a kind of confusing sentence. meqlIj vInaD.
>
>> moH yang ghIHmo' toqwIn'e' laSta'bogh 'aj.
>> The only way I can think of this making any sense, is if the {-'e'} was
> removed
>> from the {toqwIn} and placed on the {'aj}. Then we would have the meaning
>> <The image of the rubber stamp is ugly, because the admiral who inked up
>> the stamp was careless.>
>
> You don't like the current meaning of "The stamp mark is ugly because the
> rubber stamp that the admiral inked up is messy"?  I accept it if you reject
> that sentence.  I wanted to use yang laS and toqwIn in a sentence and messed
> around a bit to find a way to cram them in with a -bogh clause.
>
>> {pIm 'uSqan'e' lo'bogh no'ma'.}
>> <The iron which was used by our ancestors is different.> I think we could
>> place here the {-'e'} on {no'ma'} thus having <Our ancestors who used iron
>> were different>.
>
> maj.
>
>> Hopefully, tomorrow I will have the time to translate the english
> sentences
>> too..
>
> They will probably be harder, because there is more room for you to make
> mistakes, but you seem to understand the process now.
>
>> cpt qunnoq
>>
>> On Wed, Jan 20, 2016 at 12:30 PM, mayql qunenoS <mihkoun at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> >> You have no more created passive voice in Klingon than you have
>> >> created
>> >> type-5 suffixes in English. When you translate, you use the tools the
>> >> language has. If I can use a ladder to get things off high shelves in
>> >> my house and you stand on a dog in your house, the fact that I could
>> >> reach the marmalade  for breakfast this morning does not imply the
>> >> spontaneous appearance of a dog in my kitchen. Different tools, same
>> >> job, even if I sometimes refer to your dog as a ladder, and you
>> >> sometimes refer to my ladder as a dog. (Also some people will
>> >> complain that it's stupid that you stand on a dog, and your house
>> >> can't be taken seriously as a real house until whoever built it gets
> you a
>> ladder).
>> >
>> > This is a beautiful explanation ! Believe it or not, I had suspected
>> > that something like this must be going on, but I asked anyway in order
>> > to make certain. This whole thing reminds me of something SuStel had
>> > told me, not so long ago, when I had difficulty understanding why the
>> > indefinite subject isn't actually passive voice, however we often
>> > choose to translate it as passive voice. If memory serves my right, he
>> > had said that I was confusing the literal translation with the actual
>> > meaning (or something like that).
>> >
>> > Anyway, I think I understand now, so I will start working on your last
>> > group of sentences and post them here soon.
>> >
>> > cpt qunnoq
>> >
>> > On Wed, Jan 20, 2016 at 8:12 AM, Anthony Appleyard
>> > <a.appleyard at btinternet.com> wrote:
>> >> This comma in English written relative senteces likely corresponds to
>> >> a slight hesitation in speech.
>> >>
>> >> ----Original message----
>> >> From : lojmitti7wi7nuv at gmail.com
>> >>
>> >>>  ...
>> >>> In English, we differentiate parenthetical from identifying clauses
>> >>> by using a comma with parenthetical clauses, but omitting the comma
>> >>> for a clause that identifies the specific item. Klingon apparently
>> >>> does not differentiate between these two types of relative clauses.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
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