[Tlhingan-hol] KLBC: {-'e'} and {-bogh}

[mayql qunenoS]

ok, this thread is getting really long, and I'm confused as to, to whom
I need to answer first !

lets take things from the beginning..

Qov : > chalDaq Qob nIn Hutlhbogh muD Duj.
jIH : > I would translate this as <an airplane which lacks fuel is
dangerous at the
       > sky or maybe <the sky (where there is) an airplane without fuel is
       > dangerous.
De'vID : > {chalDaq Qob nIn'e' Hutlhbogh muD Duj} yIqel.

I don't understand this. how does the placement of {-'e'} on {nIn}
alter the translations I wrote ?

jIH : > the sky (where there is) an airplane without fuel
      > is dangerous chalDaq'e' Qob nIn Hutlhbogh muD Duj.
De'vID : > DuHbe' mu'tlheghvam. mojaq Segh vagh bIH {-Daq}'e' {-'e'}'e' je.

ok, this I understand. I can't have two type 5 noun suffixes on the same word.

moving on..

lojmIt tI'wI' nuv : > Beyond the problem of two Type 5 suffixes on {chal},
                    > the root issue is that it is problematic to use a locative
                    > as a subject of a verb. It suggests that the
location of a thing
                    > is doing the action of the verb rather than the
thing itself.
                    > The circumstances would have to be exceptional,
if it is possible
                    > at all. My imagination fails to invent a good case.

ok, I understand this, thanks.

jIH : > the sky (where there is) an airplane without fuel is dangerous
chalDaq'e' Qob nIn
      > Hutlhbogh muD Duj
Qov : > Read the comments others have written in response to this.
They cover the type-5
      > problem and the second meaning which you missed.

I read the other comments, but I still can't figure out the correct translation.

Qov : > nIn Hutlhbogh muD Duj. Which is dangerous, the fuel
      > that the  aircraft lacks, or the aircraft that
      > lacks fuel?

the aircraft that lacks the fuel.

jIH : > DaHjaj vengmajDaq 'oHtaH muD Duj QIHta'bogh SorghwI'.  => -'e' possible,
      > but completely unnecessary. I understand this sentence, and
the reason why
      > the {-'e} is unnecessary ; however shouldn't instead of
{'oHtaH} the {ghaHtaH}
      > be used ? It is the SorghwI' who is today at our city, and the
SorghwI' can either be a <he> or a <she>.
Qov : > It's kind of adorable how you have grabbed the alternate
interpretation of the -bogh clause and
      > then interpreted 'oHtaH as an error instead of a sign
directing you back to the correct path.
      > As you read the sentence, you first learn the setting the
where the action takes place. It happens DaHjaj,
      > and it happens vengmajDaq. So what happens today in our city?
The verb is 'oHtaH, which means that some thing,
      > not a language using being, is there. What is the thing that
is there? It's the muD Duj'e' QIHta'bogh SorghwI'. T
      > he aircraft is present, not  (necessarily) the saboteur.  Indeed,
      > were the saboteur the subject of the sentence, ghaHtaH would be correct.

ok, now I understand this.

Qov : > Still, no.   That -bogh clause sits in the subject position of
the sentence.
      > The marker -'e' cannot alter the OVS structure of the sentence
nor of the -bogh clause.
      > All -'e' does is specify which of the nouns in the -bogh
clause does the job of sentence subject.
      > The subject of the -bogh clause is wa'maH wa' rewbe'. You
cannot change that without altering
      > the order of the words. Write now properly in Klingon how you
would translate <the exceptional
      > robot which created the eleven citizens, searches for the ship>.

now, this is beautiful ! I believe here lies the root of the problem
(my problem). if I manage to really
understand these comments you wrote, I believe that my problem with
{-'e'} will be resolved. So, how would
I say <the exceptional robot which created the eleven citizens,
searches for the ship>.

I will not look at the previous sentences before attempting to
translate this, so as not to influence my
mind, or even worst cheat.. So, lets assume this is the first time I
saw this english sentence and tried to
translate it in klingon. maybe I would say :

Duj nej wa'maH wa' rewbe' chenmoHpu'bogh qoq le''e'.

maybe now, I'm beginning to understand. the <the exceptional robot
which created the eleven citizens>
is the subject (S). the (V) is the <searches for> and the (O) is <the ship>.

But if I now dare to venture deeper in the rabbit hole of {-'e'}, in
this example, why do I need the {-'e'} ?
This is *the* question. If I now take into account, that the {-'e'}
specifies which of the nouns
in the -bogh clause does the job of sentence subject, then maybe if I wrote :

Duj nej wa'maH wa' rewbe''e' chenmoHpu'bogh qoq le'.

the translation would be :

<the eleven citizens who were created by the robot are searching for the ship>.

is this correct ? Something tells me that it isn't.. Because if it is,
this means what ? That I can take a sentence,
throw it in the cooking cauldron along with the desired use of {-'e'},
stir the two together and voila !
produce passive voice..

something tells me, that this rabbit hole is slowly turning into a maze..

tell me your comments, and then I will move on to the rest of the
sentences in your original message.
I believe it is better to proceed slowly, solving the mystery of
{-'e'} small steps at a time..

and 'arHa', thank you too, for your sentences. as soon as I finish
with the sentences of Qov, I will
comment on yours too.

cpt qunnoq







On Tue, Jan 19, 2016 at 10:39 AM,  <qov at kli.org> wrote:
>>
>> Qov:
>> >>> chalDaq ghomchuq QuQ HutlhwI', QuQ ghajwI' je, He DIb nobnIS QuQ
>> >>> ghajwI' net Sov. vaj SolHeyvamvaD QuQ HutlhwI'vaD He DIb vInob jIH.
>>
>> Qov:
>> > vIlaDqa'DI' QaghHomwIj vIlegh. {chalDaq ghomchuq*chugh* QuQ HutlhwI'
>> > ....}
>>
>> maSolQo' 'ach QaghHommeyHeylIjmo' yIlaDqa'.
>
> DIp 'oH Sol'e'.  maghoH 'e' vIpIHbe'.  QaghHom DaSIqlaw'bogh vIleghbe'.
> HIchuH.
>
>
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