[Tlhingan-hol] How would you feel about new Klingon morphemes? [was: New expression: Klingon for "dim sum" revealed‏]

[mayqel qunenoS]

> You suggest that I am bad for the community.
> Clearly you’d be more content if I left again.

lojmIt tI'wI' nuv, 'aDmeymajDaq ve'mo' tlhIngan 'Iw, nom maQeHchoH SoH jIH je.
lojmIt tI'wI' nuv, because klingon blood runs in our veins, we both
become angry easily.

'a SuvwI' maHmo', reH SIbI'Ha' Qaghmaj DIchIDlaH.
however because we are warriors, always in the end we are able to
admit our mistakes.

nughmajvaD bIqab 'e' vIHechbe' 'ej qamawchugh vaj jItlhIj.
I didn't mean that you're bad for our community, and if I offended you
I apologise.

reH maSuvchuqDI' vItIv, ghol HoS SoHmo' 'ej ghol 'umqu' SoHmo'.
always I enjoyed it when we fought each other, because you're a strong
and worthy opponent.

'ej reH may' QaQ wItIv, tlhIngan maHmo', qar'a' ?
and always we enjoy a good fight, because we are klingons right ?

toH, bImej vIneHbejQo' !
so I definitely don't want you to leave !

cpt qunnoq
may your coordinates be free of tribbles

On Fri, Apr 29, 2016 at 5:40 PM, lojmIttI'wI'nuv
<lojmitti7wi7nuv at gmail.com> wrote:
> I apologize for the rudeness. Text is a bad medium. I can write something
> that is more brusk than it should have been and you can read it as far more
> arrogant and mean than I intended. No vocal tone means that you can imagine
> vocal tones that are not there very easily. It happens all the time. Flame
> wars erupt between people who are never as nasty face to face as they become
> via text.
>
> I confess that any time anyone asserts that the Klingon language should be
> better than it is, it strikes me as rude. And yes, I make this assertion
> sometimes, and I don’t particularly like myself for it.
>
> You are a surgeon. It is not your job to create languages. True. Marc Orkand
> also had a day job that did not involve creating languages. He managed the
> crew of people who create subtitles for the hearing impaired for live TV
> productions. A friend who worked for Paramount Studios asked him as a favor
> to make up an alien-sounding audio track for a Vulcan scene already shot in
> English to be dubbed in for the second Star Trek movie, and this avocational
> favor eventually turned into his creating the Klingon language on a whim,
> while still maintaining his day job and the other parts of what was probably
> a full life.
>
> I also don’t create languages. I started once or twice, and I can come up
> with some interesting meta-ideas — a secret society that uses a language
> that in written form can appear to be meaningless decorations along the
> border of books and art work, and whose spoken language is designed to be
> whispered, so there are no phonemes differentiated by vocalization. You
> either vocalize nothing while whispering, or vocalize everything while
> yelling across a field. Vocalization is only for amplification, not for the
> phonemes themselves.
>
> But I never get very far because my life is full. It’s okay for my life to
> be full. It’s okay for your life to be full.
>
> Please don’t take it as a personal insult that I honestly believe that our
> respect for the brilliant, if imperfect, gift of the Klingon language should
> bring us to pause before looking this horse in the mouth.
>
> How many people speak Klingon? At the Klingon Language camp in Minnesota
> that met a year before qep’a’ wa’DIch, one person spoke Klingon. Captain
> Krankor. A year later, at qep’a’ wa’DIch, two people spoke Klingon. Seqram
> and Krankor had conversations with each other while the rest of us gaped and
> flipped through our dictionaries.
>
> At qep’a’ cha’DIch perhaps half a dozen people could speak Klingon. I was
> among them. There were always people on the fringe who wanted to learn, but
> couldn’t cross that gap yet. In the years since, the number has spread, and
> the boundary between those speaking the language and those observing those
> speaking the language has become increasingly vague as the level of skill
> has broadened in scope. Nobody knows how many people can speak Klingon.
>
> We’ve also lost people who once were quite skilled, but they have wandered
> off. One served us honorably as beginners’ grammarian for a year and then
> came to his first qep’a’ and was never heard from again.
>
> Different people learn the language for different reasons. My own reason had
> nothing to do with Star Trek. I was less interested in it than my romantic
> partner at the time and I wanted to learn another language in order to
> expand the way that my mind works. I’d meet someone who was in the Peace
> Corps in Malasia and I’d start teaching myself Malasian, only to discover
> that she just learned a few words and never learned the grammar. Another
> spent a month of each year in Turkey, so I started learning Turkish, and
> found out that she also only learned perhaps dozens of words and no grammar.
> I was looking for a language that, here in America, I could find people I
> knew to talk to.
>
> You’d think Spanish or American Sign Language would be good candidates. The
> problem is that I haven’t had the luxury of being among people at my level
> progressing toward learning a language. They either already speak the
> language and have no clue as to how to help me learn it, or they don’t
> really speak it and they aren’t improving.
>
> I stumbled into Klingon as a group of people were beginning to learn it. We
> were all learning together. That was exciting to me.
>
> I was remarkably stubborn and stupid in the very beginning, having, as I
> remember it, a remarkably difficult time dealing with the simple idea that
> an adjectival verb acts as a verb when before the noun it describes, but
> follows the noun when it acts as an adjective. Krankor hammered me for about
> a month before that sank in.
>
> And then, suddenly, it started making more sense. Everything started making
> more sense. Krankor took the oath and refused to write anything on the list
> in English. He assigned me the task, since I was the BG at the time, to
> translate everything he said in response to messages addressed to him, so
> people would ask him questions in English, he’d answer very eloquently in
> Klingon, and I’d translate it for the list (so the list saw both his version
> and my version).
>
> At the end of that month, I could speak Klingon better than most at the
> time. In particular, I got a reputation for being able to clearly and
> efficiently express things in the language that linguists on the list were
> saying the language was poorly equipped to express. It became a source of
> self-esteem for me at a time in my life when, let’s say I had significant
> issues surrounding self-esteem.
>
> Then SuStel and I got into a remarkable feud, in part because we are both,
> in his recent words, annoyingly patronizing. Don’t take my word for it. Ask
> around. Many will attest. Neither of us intend to be annoyingly patronizing.
> In real life, we are both really nice people. Something about how we
> communicate with and about the language brings out this ugliness in us both.
>
> From time to time, in an effort to improve myself, I leave the list. I try
> to come back with some different persona. It usually works for a while. Then
> we come back to this.
>
> As the poster at Despair.com puts it:
>
> http://despair.com/products/dysfunction
>
> Clearly, given the repeated nature of the conflicts I find here, I am not
> blameless. You suggest that I am bad for the community. Clearly you’d be
> more content if I left again.
>
> So be it.
>
> pItlh
> lojmIt tI'wI'nuv
>
>
>
> On Apr 29, 2016, at 7:33 AM, mayqel qunenoS <mihkoun at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> lojmIt tI'wI' nuv,
>
> It is not so much, your rude and arrogant reply, which forces me to
> answer. I can understand that this is the way you choose to write, so
> I don't care nor do I lose any sleep over it.
>
> However I see, that despite the over two decades of experience you
> have in klingon, and despite your impressive grammar skills, you fail
> to realize some simple facts. I will help you understand these facts.
>
> lojmIt tI'wI' nuv:
>
> Why don't you start from scratch, like Okrand did, and see if you can come
> up with a language that is half as versatile, expressive, and interesting as
> Klingon.
> I dare you.
> and then try to find a group of people willing to learn how to speak it.
>
>
> First of all, I'm a surgeon not a linguist so its not my job to create
> languages. And because of my profession I believe, that noone is above
> judgement and criticism. Everyone must be able to justify his choices
> and most importantly back them up.
>
> You have gotten things all wrong here. You really believe that people
> are learning klingon because of its versatile grammar ? Seriously ?
> You think that people are learning klingon because it is "versatile,
> expressive, and interesting" ? Of course it is those things, I agree
> with you. But you really think that this is the reason ?
>
> People are interested in klingon because of star trek, and the way
> that klingons are depicted there. If klingon had nothing to do with
> star trek whatsoever, how many do you think would actually be
> interested ? Or if klingon wasn't the language of a "warrior race",
> but the language of a species as the romulans or the ferengi, then
> again how many would be interested ?
>
> Maybe you don't agree, and you have every right to have your own
> opinion.. But for everyone else who is actually interested in facts,
> here is the proof :
>
> http://www.klingonwiki.net/En/EmailDiscussionForum
>
> How many have been really convinced to learn klingon ? You, me and how
> many others exactly ? How many fluent speakers are out there ? ok,
> scratch that.. how many speakers are out there ? oops ! sorry !
> scratch that too.. How many people are out there who even know the
> basic grammar ?
>
> But again, I'm making difficult questions, so I'll ask something easy.
> After all because I'm lazy, I like easy questions right ?
>
> How many members has this list ? the list of KLI ? It has the
> astronomic number of 230 + 70 members approximately ! Oh, the
> multitude ! Oh the legions ! And how many new people keep coming here
> ? How many beginners flood this list ?
>
> So many that Qov has written on numerous occasions that she would wish
> for way more people who would be interested in actually learning, and
> -here is my favorite-, so many that before QISta', Karen and me, (a
> few months before today that is), there was no Beginner's Grammarian !
>
> ..and for how long did you not have a BG ?
>
> http://www.klingonwiki.net/En/BeginnersGrammarian
>
> For eight years no BG ! noone ! none ! oh of the interest in klingon !
> And now that we have a BG, how many questions exactly are addressed to
> him a week ? a month ?
>
> So, don't tell me how many people have been actually convinced of
> learning klingon. Aside from some scenes in Big Bang Theory, NCIS and
> people writing a word or two on youtube comments, the interest in
> klingon is virtually non-existent. that is the sad truth. The only
> true measure of any actual interest in a language, is the number of
> people putting the effort to actually learn it.
>
> And the even saddest truth is, that when people insult beginners the
> way you do, soon the "virtually non-existent" will become
> "non-existent". If you care about klingon, then you don't assault
> those who learn, merely because they performed the crime of requesting
> more. You help them overcome their obvious difficulty, unless of
> course you're performing some kind of triage "who is worthy of
> learning and who's not".
>
> do whatever you like. fortunately for klingon you're the minority.
>
> qunnoq HoD
>
> On Thu, Apr 28, 2016 at 10:38 PM, lojmIttI'wI'nuv
> <lojmitti7wi7nuv at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> ‘ej not bI<be obnoxiously condescending> net Sov...
>
> pItlh
> lojmIt tI'wI'nuv
>
>
>
> On Apr 28, 2016, at 9:51 AM, SuStel <sustel at trimboli.name> wrote:
>
> On 4/28/2016 8:12 AM, lojmIt tI'wI' nuv wrote:
>
> The Klingon language is a masterpiece. Stop trying to add your little piece
> of graffiti to it.
>
>
> qunnoq Dara' 'e' yImev. HollIj Dun'qu' ghIHmoHbe'. batlh ghel 'ej batlh bup.
> vItbej.
>
>
> tlhIngan Hol jatlhlu'taHvIS, chay' obnoxious condescension mughlu'? chaq
> obnoxiously condescendbe' tlhInganpu'...
>
>
> --
> SuStel
> http://trimboli.name
>
> _______________________________________________
> Tlhingan-hol mailing list
> Tlhingan-hol at kli.org
> http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Tlhingan-hol mailing list
> Tlhingan-hol at kli.org
> http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Tlhingan-hol mailing list
> Tlhingan-hol at kli.org
> http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Tlhingan-hol mailing list
> Tlhingan-hol at kli.org
> http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol
>