[Tlhingan-hol] KLBC: plural in nationalities

Thu Nov 12 17:47:06 PST 2015

wejpuH.

Learn the rules and the rules change.

So, since {tlhIngan Hol} actually means {tlhIngan wo’ Hol} that suggests that {tlhIngan wo’} means “a Klingon’s empire, and what we are really saying is, “a Klingon’s empire’s language”.

No wonder they shortened it.

Hmm.

But since it also can be called {ta’ Hol}, that suggests that it’s also “the emperor’s language”. So, even though there may be a lot of tlhInganpu’ who speak the language, only the emperor gets the language named after his rank. Others may speak other Klingon languages or dialects, but though they are Klingons, they can’t call what they speak {tlhIngan Hol} unless it’s the emperor’s dialect. And I guess that other Klingon planets that speak ta’ Hol don’t get a language named after their planet, like everybody else...

But Vulcans apparently don’t have a leader who dictates the current dialect, assuming that Vulcans HAVE any dialects, and it’s apparently appropriate to name the language after the planet instead of the people who live there, or any individuals who live there. And Ferengi and Earth and all the other planets and the Federation…

Hmm.

So, tera’nganpu’ speak Federation Standard, and though the Vulcans are part of the Federation, they speak the language named after their planet… when they aren’t speaking DIvI’ Hol, of course… And all the other planets of the Federation and the countries in them seem to speak their own language, plus Federation Standard…

wejpuH.

Holmey pongmey vIyajnISbe’ba’. qaS neH. ngIq ghojnISlu’. There are no universal rules for language names. The rules attempt to describe the examples. The examples were not created by using rules. While every rule has exceptions, with enough exceptions, the rule shows itself not to be a very good rule.

lojmIt tI’wI’ nuv ‘utlh
Door Repair Guy, Retired Honorably

> On Nov 12, 2015, at 5:15 PM, Felix Malmenbeck <felixm at kth.se> wrote:
> 
> > Meanwhile, you wouldn’t tend to call it {Qo’noS Hol} because the planet
> > doesn’t speak the language. It’s inhabitants do.
> 
> My interpretation is somewhat different, mainly due to the fact that Marc Okrand has explaind that the main dialect of {tlhIngan Hol} should more appropriately be called {tlhIngan wo' Hol}, "the language of the Klingon Empire" (and the main dialect is {ta' tlhIngan Hol}).
> 
> http://klingonska.org/canon/2012-04-01-email.txt <http://klingonska.org/canon/2012-04-01-email.txt>
> 
> In that same e-mail, he also specified that the standard way to refer to a national langauge would be "contry + Hol", rather than "country+ngan + Hol".
> 
> From: Will Martin <lojmitti7wi7nuv at gmail.com>
> Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2015 22:50
> To: tlhInganHol discussion group
> Subject: Re: [Tlhingan-hol] KLBC: plural in nationalities
>  
> For what it’s worth, I would have said {vulcan loD} and not {vulqangan loD}, since you’d be talking about a man of the planet Vulcan and not a man of a Vulcan (as in perhaps a servant or slave owned by a Vulcan). Yes, I know about the genitive. The relationship between the man and the planet is genitive. The relationship between the man and a Vulcan person is, to my ear, not so much.
> 
> Keep in mind that Okrand has explained to us that {tlhIngan Hol} literally means “a Klingon’s language”, or “the language of a Klingon”. {tlhIngan} remains a noun at all times and is not, as is commonly translated into English, an adjective. Meanwhile, you wouldn’t tend to call it {Qo’noS Hol} because the planet doesn’t speak the language. It’s inhabitants do.
> 
> pItlh
> lojmIt tI'wI'nuv
> 
> 
> 
>> On Nov 12, 2015, at 2:35 PM, Elizabeth Lawrence <elizabeth.lawrence08 at gmail.com <mailto:elizabeth.lawrence08 at gmail.com>> wrote:
>> 
>> I think that qunnoQ was asking about insulting people by calling them "Ferengi dogs."  In that case, if he is using the construction <<verengan Ha'DIbaH>>, Ha'DIbaH is the descriptor.  
>> 
>> This is somewhat idiomatic, so I am not certain that it makes sense as a Klingon insult.  Not all cultures consider animals inferior/insulting in this way.  However, I would not use a plural at all (they are always optional as 'arHa' pointed out).  Instead, I would say it as a complete sentence.
>> 
>> verengan Ha'DIbaH SoH!
>> You are a Ferengi dog!
>> 
>> verengan Ha'DIbaH tlhIH!
>> You (plural) are Ferengi dogs!
>> 
>> This uses the pronoun to specify the plural, and makes it clear that it is an insult, rather than a description of Ferengi animals.
>> 
>> For the first set of questions, I would personally translate it thus:
>> 
>> vulqangan loD - the Vulcan man
>> 
>> vulqanganpu' - the Vulcans (a group of vulcans)
>> 
>> Hoch vulqanganpu' - the Vulcan people (all the vulcans)
>> 
>> 
>> I hope this helps,
>> be''etlh
>> 
>> On Thu, Nov 12, 2015 at 2:07 PM, John R. Harness <cartweel at gmail.com <mailto:cartweel at gmail.com>> wrote:
>> Hi! I’m ‘arHa, the newly-minted Beginner’s Grammarian! Thanks for your question, and for tagging your thread with KLBC. I’ll take a shot at answering your questions before opening it up to the rest of the community for consideration.
>> 
>> I am confident that I can clearly answer two aspects of your questions. First of all, concerning making nationalities (or species names) plural, a general rule applies: Pluralization is always optional. You can add the <-pu’> if you think it is necessary, but you can always leave it off and let context do the work for you if that is what you want.
>> 
>> Secondly, in phrases like <verengan Ha’DIbaH>, we are really talking about a <Ha’DIbaH>, not a <verengan>. The <verangan> simply tells us information about the animal; <Ha’DIbaH> is the main noun in the phrase. So, we would use the <-mey> plural suffix because the <Ha’DIbaH> is incapable of speech. Of course, one might use <-pu> for artistic reasons, say in a story about a talking Ha’DIbaH, but that is not the norm!
>> 
>> As for what I think is your most central question, I’ll describe how I’d approach it but admit that other speakers might have a clearer idea than me.
>> 
>> As far as I understand it, each of the ways that you have pluralized <verengan Ha’DIbaH> is correct, but you may choose one way of saying it to make subtle changes to what you mean. Normally, I think we would say <verengan Ha’DIbaHmey> to talk about animals from Ferenginar. <verenganpu’ Ha’DIbaHmey> says the same thing, more or less, but you may be emphasizing that the animals belong to a group of Ferengi. <verenganpu’ Ha’DIbaH> suggests an animal belonging to several Ferengi.
>> 
>> It is my understanding that <verengan Ha’DIbaH> is, technically speaking, a noun-noun construction. You can review the rules for this in section 3.4 of The Klingon Dictionary.
>> 
>> Please let me know if this is unclear or sparks new questions!
>> 
>> [And since this is my first BG response I welcome input from other speakers, especially on the last point!]
>> 
>> 'arHa
>> Beginner's Grammarian
>> 
>>  
>> Message: 2
>> Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2015 10:59:26 +0200
>> From: qunnoQ HoD <mihkoun at gmail.com <mailto:mihkoun at gmail.com>>
>> To: tlhIngan Hol mailing list <tlhingan-hol at kli.org <mailto:tlhingan-hol at kli.org>>
>> Subject: [Tlhingan-hol] KLBC : plural in nationalities
>> Message-ID:
>>         <CAP7F2cJjdy17sNpKAusgWoh=x4Cn2FUz+eSSHXCzK_ugp6RwpA at mail.gmail.com <mailto:x4Cn2FUz%2BeSSHXCzK_ugp6RwpA at mail.gmail.com>>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>> 
>> should i put the KLBC,the way i did ? if not,please tell me..
>> 
>> anyway,I would like to ask about something that confuses me.
>> 
>> 
>> in english one can say :
>> 
>> the german people (plural)
>> a german man/woman
>> 
>> the belgian people (plural)
>> a belgian man/woman
>> 
>> the italian people (plural)
>> an italian man/woman
>> 
>> ..and so on
>> 
>> on the other hand one can also say :
>> 
>> the germans (plural)
>> the belgians (plural)
>> the italians (plural)
>> 
>> 
>> in klingon when i say {verengan} does this mean both singular/plural
>> depending on the context ?
>> i can't understand when to say {verengan} and when {verenganpu'}.
>> 
>> if i want to call a group of people <<ferengi dogs>> (my favorite klingon
>> expression), should i say
>> {verengan Ha'DIbaHmey},{verenganpu' Ha'DIbaH} or {verenganpu' Ha'DIbaHmey} ?
>> 
>> ..which brings up another question
>> 
>> if the plural suffix is to be put on the second word,should i use {-pu'} or
>> {-mey} ? I mean the ferengi may be able to talk,but the dog isn't..
>> 
>> cpt qunnoQ
>> 
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