[Tlhingan-hol] KLBC: plural in nationalities

Thu Nov 12 13:50:09 PST 2015

For what it’s worth, I would have said {vulcan loD} and not {vulqangan loD}, since you’d be talking about a man of the planet Vulcan and not a man of a Vulcan (as in perhaps a servant or slave owned by a Vulcan). Yes, I know about the genitive. The relationship between the man and the planet is genitive. The relationship between the man and a Vulcan person is, to my ear, not so much.

Keep in mind that Okrand has explained to us that {tlhIngan Hol} literally means “a Klingon’s language”, or “the language of a Klingon”. {tlhIngan} remains a noun at all times and is not, as is commonly translated into English, an adjective. Meanwhile, you wouldn’t tend to call it {Qo’noS Hol} because the planet doesn’t speak the language. It’s inhabitants do.

pItlh
lojmIt tI'wI'nuv

> On Nov 12, 2015, at 2:35 PM, Elizabeth Lawrence <elizabeth.lawrence08 at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> I think that qunnoQ was asking about insulting people by calling them "Ferengi dogs."  In that case, if he is using the construction <<verengan Ha'DIbaH>>, Ha'DIbaH is the descriptor.  
> 
> This is somewhat idiomatic, so I am not certain that it makes sense as a Klingon insult.  Not all cultures consider animals inferior/insulting in this way.  However, I would not use a plural at all (they are always optional as 'arHa' pointed out).  Instead, I would say it as a complete sentence.
> 
> verengan Ha'DIbaH SoH!
> You are a Ferengi dog!
> 
> verengan Ha'DIbaH tlhIH!
> You (plural) are Ferengi dogs!
> 
> This uses the pronoun to specify the plural, and makes it clear that it is an insult, rather than a description of Ferengi animals.
> 
> For the first set of questions, I would personally translate it thus:
> 
> vulqangan loD - the Vulcan man
> 
> vulqanganpu' - the Vulcans (a group of vulcans)
> 
> Hoch vulqanganpu' - the Vulcan people (all the vulcans)
> 
> 
> I hope this helps,
> be''etlh
> 
> On Thu, Nov 12, 2015 at 2:07 PM, John R. Harness <cartweel at gmail.com <mailto:cartweel at gmail.com>> wrote:
> Hi! I’m ‘arHa, the newly-minted Beginner’s Grammarian! Thanks for your question, and for tagging your thread with KLBC. I’ll take a shot at answering your questions before opening it up to the rest of the community for consideration.
> 
> 
> 
> I am confident that I can clearly answer two aspects of your questions. First of all, concerning making nationalities (or species names) plural, a general rule applies: Pluralization is always optional. You can add the <-pu’> if you think it is necessary, but you can always leave it off and let context do the work for you if that is what you want.
> 
> 
> 
> Secondly, in phrases like <verengan Ha’DIbaH>, we are really talking about a <Ha’DIbaH>, not a <verengan>. The <verangan> simply tells us information about the animal; <Ha’DIbaH> is the main noun in the phrase. So, we would use the <-mey> plural suffix because the <Ha’DIbaH> is incapable of speech. Of course, one might use <-pu> for artistic reasons, say in a story about a talking Ha’DIbaH, but that is not the norm!
> 
> 
> 
> As for what I think is your most central question, I’ll describe how I’d approach it but admit that other speakers might have a clearer idea than me.
> 
> As far as I understand it, each of the ways that you have pluralized <verengan Ha’DIbaH> is correct, but you may choose one way of saying it to make subtle changes to what you mean. Normally, I think we would say <verengan Ha’DIbaHmey> to talk about animals from Ferenginar. <verenganpu’ Ha’DIbaHmey> says the same thing, more or less, but you may be emphasizing that the animals belong to a group of Ferengi. <verenganpu’ Ha’DIbaH> suggests an animal belonging to several Ferengi.
> 
> 
> 
> It is my understanding that <verengan Ha’DIbaH> is, technically speaking, a noun-noun construction. You can review the rules for this in section 3.4 of The Klingon Dictionary.
> 
> Please let me know if this is unclear or sparks new questions!
> 
> 
> 
> [And since this is my first BG response I welcome input from other speakers, especially on the last point!]
> 
> 
> 'arHa
> Beginner's Grammarian
> 
>  
> Message: 2
> Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2015 10:59:26 +0200
> From: qunnoQ HoD <mihkoun at gmail.com <mailto:mihkoun at gmail.com>>
> To: tlhIngan Hol mailing list <tlhingan-hol at kli.org <mailto:tlhingan-hol at kli.org>>
> Subject: [Tlhingan-hol] KLBC : plural in nationalities
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> 
> should i put the KLBC,the way i did ? if not,please tell me..
> 
> anyway,I would like to ask about something that confuses me.
> 
> 
> in english one can say :
> 
> the german people (plural)
> a german man/woman
> 
> the belgian people (plural)
> a belgian man/woman
> 
> the italian people (plural)
> an italian man/woman
> 
> ..and so on
> 
> on the other hand one can also say :
> 
> the germans (plural)
> the belgians (plural)
> the italians (plural)
> 
> 
> in klingon when i say {verengan} does this mean both singular/plural
> depending on the context ?
> i can't understand when to say {verengan} and when {verenganpu'}.
> 
> if i want to call a group of people <<ferengi dogs>> (my favorite klingon
> expression), should i say
> {verengan Ha'DIbaHmey},{verenganpu' Ha'DIbaH} or {verenganpu' Ha'DIbaHmey} ?
> 
> ..which brings up another question
> 
> if the plural suffix is to be put on the second word,should i use {-pu'} or
> {-mey} ? I mean the ferengi may be able to talk,but the dog isn't..
> 
> cpt qunnoQ
> 
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