[Tlhingan-hol] Beginner's Grammarian: The hunt is on

Tue Nov 10 09:40:24 PST 2015

on the subject of "one answer to a beginner's question or many" I believe
there is no right/wrong response ; It depends on the individual beginner
and how his own mind is wired to work. Personally, I love many answers to a
single question,because all those multiple answers challenge me to sort
them out,thus learning more efficiently in the end.
with regards to facebook and any other kind of social networking, I haven't
ever made any use of them,nor do I plan to in the future. Again this is a
personal choice. It is far more convenient to check my mail,than to be
constantly logging in and out from various social networks. But again,this
is a matter of personal taste.
I don't see a reason though,why anything should change in the function of a
mailing list,which exists from 1993..

cpt qunnoQ

On Tue, Nov 10, 2015 at 7:05 PM, Fatairae <fatairae at gmail.com> wrote:

> While I agree that FB provides better organization for its threads and
> messages, the fact that it is reliant on their storage for the msgs makes
> it difficult to use.  With mail, I can easily copy, paste, and store
> comments, even when not connected to the Internet.  Just my two cents as a
> newcomer to the group.
>
> I agree wholeheartedly with Lieven on the subject of mass responses vs a
> single organized response; while learning, I find it's easier to
> internalize a single answer, and later learn the variants, rather then try
> to sort out 50, not knowing what of which is best.
>   Having a single "beginners" answer, perhaps followed by the wisdom of
> the community, would make it much easier to internalize.
>
> On Nov 10, 2015, at 11:08, Karen Alessio <karenalessio at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I just joined the klingon groups there on FB... the only thing I see being
> a privacy issue is that they are "open groups" which means anything you
> post there can show up on friends' newsfeeds.... which i imagine can get
> annoying for your friends. but a good workaround was suggested, to use a
> special email address for signing up with no contacts in the address book,
> and dont "friend" anyone non-klingon affiliated. I'm just using my regular
> FB account, but my friends are mostly geeks too, and I hope they dont mind.
> lol
> On Nov 10, 2015 11:01 AM, "qurgh lungqIj" <qurgh at wizage.net> wrote:
>
>> NO NO NO NO NO!!! This is fear mongering and just isn't true! One only
>> tosses all pretense of privacy to the wind if one tells Facebook everything
>> about one's life. One has the control until one gives it up.
>>
>> To sign up for Facebook the only thing you have to give is a name and an
>> email address. That's it. If you're really paranoid, create a new email
>> account and use a fake name, then only join the Learn Klingon group and
>> lock down everything else.
>>
>> You chose what to share on Facebook, not Facebook. You choose who to
>> friend on Facebook, not Facebook. You chose what to post on Facebook, not
>> Facebook. If you don't want Facebook knowing something, don't tell
>> Facebook!
>>
>> Sure Facebook can track what we say in and about Klingon, but so can the
>> whole world with this mailing list because we make it public. If we are
>> creating public information, why does it matter if a company uses it? They
>> could use it now.
>>
>> qurgh
>>
>> On Tue, Nov 10, 2015 at 10:42 AM, Will Martin <lojmitti7wi7nuv at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> I understand that Facebook is the wave of the future, but I’d just like
>>> to point out that by using it, one tosses all pretense of privacy to the
>>> wind. We willingly give lots of personal information and links to all the
>>> people and groups we choose to associate with to a corporation with a
>>> reputation for trying really hard to be as fascist as possible, backing off
>>> only when there’s an outcry about something specific that they’ve done that
>>> pisses off hundreds of thousands of people.
>>>
>>> Basically, the corporation has a psychopathic attitude — that we are
>>> objects to be manipulated for its profit and advantage with minimal concern
>>> for our well-being as living entities. We provide them with data and with
>>> connections. Some wonder how Facebook is so good at guessing who our
>>> friends are, completely blind to the simple fact that our friends TOLD them
>>> that we are friends, or that we have mathematically derivable combinations
>>> of common friends that suggest that we should be associated with one
>>> another. Facebook then asks you to confirm those associations to improve
>>> the accuracy of their data.
>>>
>>> If one of the governments where this multinational corporation maintains
>>> servers decides to persecute political undesirables and those associated
>>> with them, this data would become remarkably valuable, and for a
>>> corporation whose only concern is profit, value means profit. There are
>>> people in China right now who are in prison for their political interests
>>> because Yahoo decided to hand over data the government asked for rather
>>> than lose the profitable Chinese market. Tell me that Facebook doesn’t
>>> consider that a reasonable business decision.
>>>
>>> So, I don’t much care if mailing lists are considered quaint. Do what
>>> you like on Facebook. Do what you dare there.
>>>
>>> I use it for one small part of my life, for promotional purposes,
>>> figuring that dancing is harmless enough that being identified as a dancer
>>> probably won’t land me in prison even in the future, unless the radical
>>> Baptists take over, and even with that relatively safe topic, I feel icky
>>> and consider withdrawing. I feel like I SHOULD withdraw.
>>>
>>> But hey, it’s popular, and we want to be popular, so I guess that trumps
>>> any concerns about improving the data collected by a heartless, evil,
>>> multi-national corporation for some future use over which we’ll have no
>>> influence at the time. That regret is in the future. Maybe we’ll be dead by
>>> then. No sense showing any caution now, before that happens, right?
>>>
>>> pItlh
>>> lojmIt tI'wI'nuv
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Nov 10, 2015, at 9:53 AM, qurgh lungqIj <qurgh at wizage.net> wrote:
>>>
>>> On Tue, Nov 10, 2015 at 6:09 AM, Lieven <levinius at gmx.de> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Am 10.11.2015 um 03:56 schrieb qurgh lungqIj:
>>>>
>>>>> One of the reason the old BG line was broken, was that there wasn't
>>>>> enough traffic on the list to warrant a new BG.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> For anyone interested: I made an anlysis of the traffic simply based on
>>>> the archive, right here:
>>>> www.klingonwiki.net/En/EmailDiscussionForum
>>>
>>>
>>> That's good info. Back when the BG was going strong we got at least
>>> 5000+ messages. The position seems to have died when we dropped down to
>>> around 2000.
>>>
>>> I'd be interested to see membership levels over the same time period.
>>> Unfortunately we don't have access to any of that kind of data.
>>>
>>>
>>>> in activity due to qunnoQ and the new words has been great, is it really
>>>>> enough to warrant a new BG?
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Yes. I would say it is, even with very few beginners, there should be
>>>> someone appointed to welcome these. Even if traffic slows down, even with
>>>> only one newbie in one month, there should be someone to say hello. What
>>>> can happen? A workless BG will not starve to death.
>>>>
>>>
>>> True, but is a workless BG worthy of the title of "Grammarian" after
>>> helping three or four people over a year? I (and others) have helped way
>>> more people than that for the past two years in the "Learn Klingon" group.
>>> If we are going to tie a title to dealing with a workload, then that
>>> workload needs to be equal for each participant in my opinion.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> We've seen recently what should be avoided by a BG: beginners ask a
>>>> question and either get ten answers at once, or none at all. That's  why we
>>>> need a BG.
>>>
>>>
>>> Except that when I mentioned this same thing on Facebook, Qov said
>>> something along the lines of "It's good for them to get multiple answers,
>>> then they know it's not being made up" so there appears to be counter
>>> arguments to this part of the BG paradigm. I also think that multiple
>>> different descriptions of the same thing is very helpful for a student, as
>>> it gives them multiple view-points to look from. We also have enough people
>>> that each one of the four beginners that have recently raised their hands
>>> could get their own, personal, BG. Why dump all the work on one person? If
>>> the goal is to help people learn, then giving them one-on-one service seems
>>> like it would be them most efficient system.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> People just don't use mailing lists the way they used to
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> That's true, it's almost an oldfashioned way of communication, many
>>>> prefer facebook which they can use o  their phone, instead of an email
>>>> account you need to log in or use a special software on your computer.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Here's what a new student looking to learn Klingon said about mailing
>>> lists: "Wow, a mailing list - makes me feel like using Windows 95 or
>>>  something!"
>>>
>>> Also we just had someone ask for the Facebook group as it would seem
>>> they prefer that format.
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Nevertheless, it still has more advanteages than Facebook, eespecially
>>>> archiving and searching treads.
>>>
>>>
>>> Facebook groups have both archiving and searching. They do keyword
>>> searching just like we do on the KLI site.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> Facebook group has over 900 members and adds more weekly).
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Although many people join groups only because "Hey look, I'm in a
>>>> group".
>>>
>>>
>>> That argument was true for this list for many many many years. Just look
>>> through the archives for all the spam. Also look through it for all the
>>> "How do I get off this list?" messages from people not reading the intro
>>> message. We also had to deal with people subscribing others to the list. At
>>> least with Facebook you can see every person that is joining and they have
>>> to be approved, and spam is quick and easy to deal with. In fact, being the
>>> BG might be easier on Facebook, since they could send a personalized
>>> private message to each person as they join.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> While the BG role has been very important in the past, perhaps we should
>>>>> look at other ways to use the list in lieu of new students.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I still think that it's good to have somebody "in charge", so that
>>>> newbies know where the teacher is. Just somebody who is "always around",
>>>> someone to trust.
>>>
>>>
>>> I have no issue with someone being in charge. In fact, I've been looking
>>> for someone to take on the running on this email list for over a year (with
>>> no luck, so I've been doing that too), although by "in charge" you really
>>> mean "keeping an eye on the messages and responding to certain things".
>>> Technically this list could disappear tomorrow and there's nothing any of
>>> us could do about it.
>>>
>>> qurgh
>>>
>>>
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>>
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