[Tlhingan-hol] Beginner's Grammarian: The hunt is on

Tue Nov 10 08:08:10 PST 2015

I just joined the klingon groups there on FB... the only thing I see being
a privacy issue is that they are "open groups" which means anything you
post there can show up on friends' newsfeeds.... which i imagine can get
annoying for your friends. but a good workaround was suggested, to use a
special email address for signing up with no contacts in the address book,
and dont "friend" anyone non-klingon affiliated. I'm just using my regular
FB account, but my friends are mostly geeks too, and I hope they dont mind.
lol
On Nov 10, 2015 11:01 AM, "qurgh lungqIj" <qurgh at wizage.net> wrote:

> NO NO NO NO NO!!! This is fear mongering and just isn't true! One only
> tosses all pretense of privacy to the wind if one tells Facebook everything
> about one's life. One has the control until one gives it up.
>
> To sign up for Facebook the only thing you have to give is a name and an
> email address. That's it. If you're really paranoid, create a new email
> account and use a fake name, then only join the Learn Klingon group and
> lock down everything else.
>
> You chose what to share on Facebook, not Facebook. You choose who to
> friend on Facebook, not Facebook. You chose what to post on Facebook, not
> Facebook. If you don't want Facebook knowing something, don't tell
> Facebook!
>
> Sure Facebook can track what we say in and about Klingon, but so can the
> whole world with this mailing list because we make it public. If we are
> creating public information, why does it matter if a company uses it? They
> could use it now.
>
> qurgh
>
> On Tue, Nov 10, 2015 at 10:42 AM, Will Martin <lojmitti7wi7nuv at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> I understand that Facebook is the wave of the future, but I’d just like
>> to point out that by using it, one tosses all pretense of privacy to the
>> wind. We willingly give lots of personal information and links to all the
>> people and groups we choose to associate with to a corporation with a
>> reputation for trying really hard to be as fascist as possible, backing off
>> only when there’s an outcry about something specific that they’ve done that
>> pisses off hundreds of thousands of people.
>>
>> Basically, the corporation has a psychopathic attitude — that we are
>> objects to be manipulated for its profit and advantage with minimal concern
>> for our well-being as living entities. We provide them with data and with
>> connections. Some wonder how Facebook is so good at guessing who our
>> friends are, completely blind to the simple fact that our friends TOLD them
>> that we are friends, or that we have mathematically derivable combinations
>> of common friends that suggest that we should be associated with one
>> another. Facebook then asks you to confirm those associations to improve
>> the accuracy of their data.
>>
>> If one of the governments where this multinational corporation maintains
>> servers decides to persecute political undesirables and those associated
>> with them, this data would become remarkably valuable, and for a
>> corporation whose only concern is profit, value means profit. There are
>> people in China right now who are in prison for their political interests
>> because Yahoo decided to hand over data the government asked for rather
>> than lose the profitable Chinese market. Tell me that Facebook doesn’t
>> consider that a reasonable business decision.
>>
>> So, I don’t much care if mailing lists are considered quaint. Do what you
>> like on Facebook. Do what you dare there.
>>
>> I use it for one small part of my life, for promotional purposes,
>> figuring that dancing is harmless enough that being identified as a dancer
>> probably won’t land me in prison even in the future, unless the radical
>> Baptists take over, and even with that relatively safe topic, I feel icky
>> and consider withdrawing. I feel like I SHOULD withdraw.
>>
>> But hey, it’s popular, and we want to be popular, so I guess that trumps
>> any concerns about improving the data collected by a heartless, evil,
>> multi-national corporation for some future use over which we’ll have no
>> influence at the time. That regret is in the future. Maybe we’ll be dead by
>> then. No sense showing any caution now, before that happens, right?
>>
>> pItlh
>> lojmIt tI'wI'nuv
>>
>>
>>
>> On Nov 10, 2015, at 9:53 AM, qurgh lungqIj <qurgh at wizage.net> wrote:
>>
>> On Tue, Nov 10, 2015 at 6:09 AM, Lieven <levinius at gmx.de> wrote:
>>
>>> Am 10.11.2015 um 03:56 schrieb qurgh lungqIj:
>>>
>>>> One of the reason the old BG line was broken, was that there wasn't
>>>> enough traffic on the list to warrant a new BG.
>>>>
>>>
>>> For anyone interested: I made an anlysis of the traffic simply based on
>>> the archive, right here:
>>> www.klingonwiki.net/En/EmailDiscussionForum
>>
>>
>> That's good info. Back when the BG was going strong we got at least 5000+
>> messages. The position seems to have died when we dropped down to around
>> 2000.
>>
>> I'd be interested to see membership levels over the same time period.
>> Unfortunately we don't have access to any of that kind of data.
>>
>>
>>> in activity due to qunnoQ and the new words has been great, is it really
>>>> enough to warrant a new BG?
>>>>
>>>
>>> Yes. I would say it is, even with very few beginners, there should be
>>> someone appointed to welcome these. Even if traffic slows down, even with
>>> only one newbie in one month, there should be someone to say hello. What
>>> can happen? A workless BG will not starve to death.
>>>
>>
>> True, but is a workless BG worthy of the title of "Grammarian" after
>> helping three or four people over a year? I (and others) have helped way
>> more people than that for the past two years in the "Learn Klingon" group.
>> If we are going to tie a title to dealing with a workload, then that
>> workload needs to be equal for each participant in my opinion.
>>
>>
>>
>>> We've seen recently what should be avoided by a BG: beginners ask a
>>> question and either get ten answers at once, or none at all. That's  why we
>>> need a BG.
>>
>>
>> Except that when I mentioned this same thing on Facebook, Qov said
>> something along the lines of "It's good for them to get multiple answers,
>> then they know it's not being made up" so there appears to be counter
>> arguments to this part of the BG paradigm. I also think that multiple
>> different descriptions of the same thing is very helpful for a student, as
>> it gives them multiple view-points to look from. We also have enough people
>> that each one of the four beginners that have recently raised their hands
>> could get their own, personal, BG. Why dump all the work on one person? If
>> the goal is to help people learn, then giving them one-on-one service seems
>> like it would be them most efficient system.
>>
>>
>>
>>> People just don't use mailing lists the way they used to
>>>>
>>>
>>> That's true, it's almost an oldfashioned way of communication, many
>>> prefer facebook which they can use o  their phone, instead of an email
>>> account you need to log in or use a special software on your computer.
>>>
>>
>> Here's what a new student looking to learn Klingon said about mailing
>> lists: "Wow, a mailing list - makes me feel like using Windows 95 or
>>  something!"
>>
>> Also we just had someone ask for the Facebook group as it would seem they
>> prefer that format.
>>
>>
>>>
>>> Nevertheless, it still has more advanteages than Facebook, eespecially
>>> archiving and searching treads.
>>
>>
>> Facebook groups have both archiving and searching. They do keyword
>> searching just like we do on the KLI site.
>>
>>
>>
>>> Facebook group has over 900 members and adds more weekly).
>>>>
>>>
>>> Although many people join groups only because "Hey look, I'm in a group".
>>
>>
>> That argument was true for this list for many many many years. Just look
>> through the archives for all the spam. Also look through it for all the
>> "How do I get off this list?" messages from people not reading the intro
>> message. We also had to deal with people subscribing others to the list. At
>> least with Facebook you can see every person that is joining and they have
>> to be approved, and spam is quick and easy to deal with. In fact, being the
>> BG might be easier on Facebook, since they could send a personalized
>> private message to each person as they join.
>>
>>
>>
>>> While the BG role has been very important in the past, perhaps we should
>>>> look at other ways to use the list in lieu of new students.
>>>>
>>>
>>> I still think that it's good to have somebody "in charge", so that
>>> newbies know where the teacher is. Just somebody who is "always around",
>>> someone to trust.
>>
>>
>> I have no issue with someone being in charge. In fact, I've been looking
>> for someone to take on the running on this email list for over a year (with
>> no luck, so I've been doing that too), although by "in charge" you really
>> mean "keeping an eye on the messages and responding to certain things".
>> Technically this list could disappear tomorrow and there's nothing any of
>> us could do about it.
>>
>> qurgh
>>
>>
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