[Tlhingan-hol] mIl'oD veDDIr SuvwI': 'ay' 15 - pop 'oH ghob'e'

[Robyn Stewart]

At 19:31 '?????' 1/7/2013, Rohan Fenwick - QeS 'utlh wrote:
> > I also
> > couldn't find a way to cram an second instance of
> > bel into the English translation in a way that
> > added anything to the sentence. Does it have a
> > purpose that eludes me in the Klingon?]
>
>Not really. The English rendition I have is "let 
>me see again in joy your joyful face", and I 
>realise now that he doesn't mean "let me see 
>your joyful face in joy again". vIchoH:
>
>belbogh qablIj vIlegh jIbeltaHvIS je jIH 'e' chaw'jaj.

Qap. 'IqtaH bel 'ach pIch Daghajbe' SoH.

>  > >DeSDajDaq ghaH tlhap roStevan 'ej paw'chu';
> >
> > Rostevan took him in his arms and they
> > [demonstrated affection in a culturally appropriate manner].
>
>Well put. :)

I found myself unable to guess what that was 
going to be for Georgians, and the Klingon form sounds silly in English.

> > >chaH rurbogh chang'eng'e' not tu'lu'pu' –
> > >Qorghbogh vay', vay' Qorghlu'pu'bogh joq.
> >
> > A twin like him had never been found--neither
> > someone who took care of him nor who had been cared for.
> > [I wonder if SaH is preferable to Qorgh here. I'm
> > not really getting the point of Qorghlu'pu'bogh as an asset.]
>
>The pronoun is {chaH}: "A pair like THEM had 
>never been found, neither carer nor cared-for".

vIlaDHa'ba'pu'.

>The English is "like unto them have none been, 
>neither upbringer nor upbrought".

And it makes no more sense to me in English, but 
whatever it means I think you've translated it well. Carry on.

>taH:
> > qo' bel ghaH tIna'tIn'e', mIp'a' wellu'bogh ghaH.
> >
> > Tinatin was a pleasant world,. She was a fortune owed.
>
>Hrm. I see how you got "a pleasant world". I'll 
>change it to {qo'vaD bel} or {qo' bel'a'} (the 
>English is "She is the joy of the world, she is treasure and due").

qo' bel'a' brings the meaning to me more 
directly. I don't understand the point of the 
'due' or 'owed' aspect.  Are you sure the word 
due in the original has the meaning of something that must be paid?

> > >QIt lengbe'bej loD Qup'e', Dat paSbe'qu' jul 
> rurbogh loD'e', nom lengtaHvIS.
> >
> > The young man by no means travelled slowly. The
> > man who was like the sun was everywhere, not 
> at all late, travelling quickly.
> >
> > [Late for what? I know you're working with an overwrought original.]
>
>Yeah, pretty much. "The sun-faced had not wasted 
>time in his rapid journey". ...Wasted time for 
>what? I'm not sure. I may change this to something using moD.

It's confusing having it be paS when there is no 
event to be late for. moD would help. Consider mImbe' or yevbe', too.

> > >veng loHmeH, qaStaHvIS wej jaj vengDaq ratlhtaH
> > >ghaH chon taghpa', 'ej ghojwI'Daj SermaDInvaD ngupDaj nob 'avtanDIl.
> >
> > He stayed three days to administrate the city
> > before the hunt, and Avtandil gave his cloak to his student Sermadin.
>
>I rely a lot on {ngup} in its metaphorical sense 
>of "authority, power" (or "mantle", if you like).

Not a problem. Whether literal or figurative it's 
clear that he put him in charge.

> > [Okay, now I'm confused. Is this a flashback to
> > Avtandil's role in administration of the royal
> > city before he left, or by virtue of his great
> > beauty and conversational skills he suddenly is
> > put in charge of a border city. Did you mean cho'
> > and not che' earlier? Did I miss something? Or
> > am I just failing to grasp the cultural context
> > that Avtandil simply possesses everything he passes through?]
>
>No, as you worked out in the next paragraph, 
>'avtanDIl already had the role of administering 
>this city. I'm a little loath to change the 
>order of presentation of facts in the story, but 
>from what you say, this might be one that needs 
>cutting out from here and putting earlier in the narrative.

There may be clues in the verb forms that make it 
clearer in English/Georgian and require some more 
explanation in Klingon.  I know from my novel 
that one needs more specific scene setting for 
flashbacks or recollections in Klingon.  I 
frequently had to make things more linear than I would have in English.

> > >nItebHa' toy'wI'vam'e' 'avtanDIl'e' je luQorghlu'pu';
> >
> > Acting together the servant and Avtandil were cared for.
>
>*Had been* (-pu') cared for - that is, they were 
>brought up together by roStevan. I'll change this, though:
>
>puqpu' chaHtaHvIS toy'wI'vam'e' 'avtanDIl'e' je nItebHa' luQorghlu'pu'.

maj. I didn't remember/realize that roStevan 
raised Avtandil. I though they only came to know 
one another after Avtandil attended the 
coronation. I'll have to go back and re-read.

>(naDev poD mu'tlhegh law')
>
> > >mubechqu'moHpu'bogh be'vo' DaH tIqwIj DuQtaH
> > >bel'a'. tIna'tInvaD muDuQtaH parmaqna';
> >
> > Ecstasy from the woman who has made me suffer so
> > now pierces my heart. True love for Tinatin infuses my soul.
> >
> > >SeparDu'wIj bIrDaq pubchoH tIqwIj 'Iw tuj; wej
> > >bepwIj vISo'pu'bogh vI'anglaHbe'pu'.
> >
> > In my cold [body parts metaphorized as gemstones]
> > the warm blood of my heart comes to a boil. I
> > could not yet reveal the agony I had hidden.]
>
>Um. Which body parts specifically does the 
>metaphor of {SeparDu'} make you think of? I was 
>hoping that the simile of "eyes as hard as 
>Separ" from KGT would make people think of the 
>eyes (Separ is the standard metaphor I'm using 
>throughout for the eyes), but you've just made 
>me realise that there's another entirely 
>different reading possible in this instance, 
>involving the qIvonDu'. You and your dirty mind. 
>:P Is it the qIvonDu' you were thinking of?

I honestly had nothing  in mind. I don't think of 
blood boiling in the eyes. I was convinced I was 
missing something, or had perhaps misremembered 
an additional meaning of Separ. I think it's a 
perfectly fair (fair as in may, not as in tIn) 
metaphorical stretch and it's okay for a first 
time reader to have to stretch to look for it.

> > >'ach DaH jItulchoHta' 'e' mura' be'vetlh, vaj jIbelchoH 'e' Dalegh.
> >
> > But now I have taken hope again and that woman
> > commanded me, thus you see me become pleased.
>
>'e', not 'ej: "But now that woman has commanded 
>that I take hope [again]". I cheated a bit with 
>the prefix trick on a verb that governs 'e', 
>which I don't know whether it's possible.

Ah, that would be why I read it as 'ej. I don't 
know why I like that much less than other prefix 
tricks, but I guess I can't say it's wrong. It's 
easily written as mura'mo' be'vetlh ... or 
mura'meH be'vetlh, jatlhpu' <yItulchoH>.

> > > loDnalwI' Damoj SoH neH vIneH, latlh
> > > vIneHbe'qu'; tIqwIjDaq lav pochbogh Sor'a' 'oH SanwIj'e'.›
> >
> > I want only you to become my husband. I want no
> > other. My fate is a bush a great tree plants in
> > my heart. [Or possibly a great tree that planted
> > a bush in my heart. Trees planting bushes confuse me]>
>
>It's another one of the metaphors that runs 
>throughout the whole bom. You might remember 
>that early on, 'avtanDIl is compared to a tree 
>(«woch; Sor rur»), and in many places through 
>the original poem he is simply referred to as 
>"the tree", "the cypress-formed", and such. The 
>shrub is similarly a metaphor for love here 
>("plant the violet of hope in my heart, strew 
>roses", etc.) (though I've only just realised 
>the coincidence that {lav} "shrub" and English 
>"love" are homophones - that wasn't 
>intentional). The English version of this line 
>is literally "a planted tree [i.e. Avtandil] 
>falls to my lot", but I deliberately didn't 
>resolve the {-bogh} clause in the Klingon so 
>that either reading (or both) is possible: her 
>fate could be either the love that the man 
>plants, or alternately, the man who plants the 
>love. (But I'm not deliberately trying to 
>confuse, I swear! The metaphor in this poem is just really, really dense.)

It's fine. I don't think it's the Klingon here 
that confuses me. I hope there will be lots of 
footnotes saying things like, "i.e. Avtandil". I 
might have followed it better without the six month gap in reading, too.

-Qov