[Tlhingan-hol] KLI CanonHom (was: Facebook Translation Project [FTP]: weekdays)

Fri Mar 2 07:17:11 PST 2012

> Who gave this list authority over the language? This list is not the 
> entirety of Klingon-users.

I never suggested that it was. Finding a way to reach out to a large slab of the jatlhwI' community would be one of the first steps if one were to implement such a system. [Looking at my e-mail, I realize that it coul be interpreted as "Let's set a standard, here and now!"; rest assured, that was far from my intention; what I'd like is a discussion of a system that we might - if deemed worthwhile - implement a few years from now.]
It's also why I describe it as "semi-official" and a «mu'mey ru' tetlh». Perhaps a better way to put it would be "a list of suggestions", ot "a list of precedents". I personally sometimes check Hamlet and pIn'a' qan paQDI'norgh for precedents, or search forums and mail-lists. However, I'd much rather there were some sort of list - something like the lojbanist's jbovlaste (http://jbovlaste.lojban.org/) - that I could consult; one that I knew had passed through a system that tested their recognition.

To cite an example: I've been using the gender-neutral third-person pronoun "hen" in Swedish for years, but it's only in the last month ot so that the Swedish Language Council has accepted this word, and the Swedish Academy (arguably the Marc Okrand of Swedish) has yet to accept it.
This official acceptance of the word has led to a large increase in its use, but it's still not universally accepted, and some of us defy the Language Council by changing it to "henom" when it's the object of a sentence.

Another comparison is ISO (the International Organization for Standardization). In the case we were discussing, ISO says "Monday is the first day of the week", but that doesn't mean we burn Sunday Primists on the stake.

Yet another example is pIqaD: It's arguably not canon, but as the system used by the KLI, it has some extra validity, and if you use it, even those who don't will, with some effort, be able to intetpret it by referring to this standard.

What I'm suggesting is using the KLI to set a standard (again, if deemed worthwhile). It may not be universally adopted, but at least it may become widely recognized enough to make sense to use for projects such as the Facebook translation, or in correspondence.
As you say, even obeying canon isn't mandatory, so why not consider creating an equally [or even more] optional - and more mutable - "sub-cannon" if it would help people with projects such as this one?

> As for your invocation of what Okrand would agree with, I don't think
> you're right

My belief that he might support such a system is based primarily on a conversation at qepHom where he spoke of the Na'vi:ist system, where a panel makes suggestions to Frommer, who holds veto rights. He specifically said he didn't know if that was the right way to go for Klingon, but he seemed to think it was worth considering such options.

In my vision for a project memo, one of the pillars of the project would be that it should respect Okrand's vision for the language. Another would be to include as large a number of speakers as possible.
________________________________________
From: David Trimboli [david at trimboli.name]
Sent: Friday, March 02, 2012 15:24
To: tlhingan-hol at stodi.digitalkingdom.org
Subject: Re: [Tlhingan-hol] Facebook Translation Project [FTP]: weekdays

On 3/2/2012 6:24 AM, Felix Malmenbeck wrote:

> I agree it may be a good mIw ru', but for long-term purposes, since
> this is going to be a recurring concern, I still argue that the best
> thing would be to try to develop a consensus on Klingon names for
> these days, and once there is a consensus, to pass some sort of
> semi-official list. I realize canon is very important to many of us
> (including myself), but it just makes sense to me that the
> Klingon-speaking community on Earth should decide how to refer to
> strictly Terran things (and I suspect Mar... I mean, I suspect
> *Maltz* would agree).

This is an old chestnut.

Who gave this list authority over the language? This list is not the
entirety of Klingon-users. Do you think that, say, Krankor, who doesn't
read this list, is going to give a fart what the few people who vote for
Terran phrases on this list have announced is the way we'll all be
referring to Terran things from now on? If the cabal of voters comes up
with a phrase that I think is just plain wrong, am I required to accept
it? No, sir, I do not accept the rulings of the privileged few.

Klingon isn't ours. Heck, it's not really even Okrand's: there is no law
which states that someone interested in Klingon must accept all
Okrandian sources and no others. There are people who don't read this
list, who aren't members of the KLI (whatever that means anymore), who
accept a completely different set of assumptions about what the Klingon
language is.

As for your invocation of what Okrand would agree with, I don't think
you're right. Okrand is less much invested in the idea of canon than we
are. He's pleased he's created something that so many people enjoy, and
he likes to expand it, but he has never, ever tried to assert any kind
of claim of ownership over the language. This isn't just some legal
position. He recognizes that many of us do consider him the sole source
of facts about the language, and he sometimes seeks advice from some of
us to maintain consistency with what he has done before (which we know
much, much better than he does), but he would be just as pleased to talk
to a group who have privately added their own words or grammar to the
language. Are they enjoying themselves? If so, then great!

So, no list rulings on how to say things. You can express your opinions,
you can tell people they're idiots for their opinions, but you can't
compel anyone to follow your rules. If you want such power, start a new
group and see if you can get people to join. Stranger things have happened.

--
SuStel
http://www.trimboli.name/

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