[Tlhingan-hol] Marc on Aspect

[David Trimboli]

On 8/13/2012 6:44 PM, Qov wrote:
>> If Maltz is really in a good mood, lead with this next one. He'll
>> help the whole group--this is a big question--with understanding
>> aspect. As people bring knowledge of aspect from extra reading and
>> other languages, and take apart TKD with tweezers, we have come up
>> against a divide. I'm going to characterize it with a couple of
>> disputed meanings.
>>
>> <DaHjaj may'Duj lumutlhta' tlhIngan QI'.>
>>
>> It might be translated as "Today the Klingon military have
>> constructed a battleship."
>>
>> Does it require that the Klingon military began construction of a
>> battleship and built it to completion all today? Does it mean that
>> the construction was completed today but could have commenced at
>> any time? Does it mean that the construction is complete today,
>> but could have been completed before today?
>>
>> We're ready for some more depth on how Klingons treat aspect, more
>> examples, how does it interact with the negative, what uses sound
>> right and wrong.
>
> Marc replied: *Regarding aspect, Maltz was a little less helpful (or
> a little less clear). Of your three questions about what the
> sentence really means, he said no to #1 and yes to #2 (though he
> pointed out that if the construction of the ship did start and end
> the same day, that's included in #2). For #3, he said if the <DaHjaj>
> wasn't there, it would mean that as of the time of speaking the
> sentence, they would have finished the construction (with no
> indication as to how long before that they finished), and with the
> <DaHjaj>, it's #2. My guess is this will lead to more questions.
> Maltz is always up for controversy.
>
> On another topic, Maltz thought it was interesting that the verb in
> the sample sentence began with the prefix <lu->. He would have used
> no prefix, assuming that <QI'> referred to the military
> establishment in general. On the other hand, if it's expressing that
> several distinct Klingon military organizations or branches
> collaborated in the effort, the <lu-> makes sense. (Has Maltz opened
> another can of <gharghmey>?)

What I get out of this is that with a stated time context, a completion
suffix means the verb experiences completion at that time context, but 
needn't necessarily be considered as a whole action within the time 
context. Completion does not happen before the time context. This sounds 
exactly like De'vID's conclusion.

> Lets figure out what the more questions should be in a few days so
> Marc has time to think about them before qep'a'.

Ask him about the bit in TKD about verbs lacking a type 7 suffix being 
neither completed nor continuous. What does *this* sentence mean, 
compared to the previous one?

DaHjaj may'Duj mutlh tlhIngan QI'.

matlhvo' De'vam DaSuqta'mo' choyonmoHchu'pu'.

-- 
SuStel
http://www.trimboli.name/