[Tlhingan-hol] {Hotlh} and {ghoS}

Tue Dec 27 07:46:12 PST 2011

While I'm sure it has nothing to do with the actual meaning, I get the idea that Okrand was considering the path of an image emitting from a projector, or of any radar-like emission to be reflected for the purpose of generating an image. That's what scanning usually is, after all. 

And to a greater degree of technical detail, both projection and scanning typically involve a linear beam "scanning" side to side, painting narrow stripes which build an image by stacking the stripes to cover a 2-D area, even when generating or capturing a 3-D image. 

I just get that sense from the way {ghoS} was created. It has less to do with motion than a path. Similar is {vegh}. The shape of paths seem significant to the language in a way requiring helper words to express in English. 

Meanwhile, I would argue that you cannot project "us". You can scan us, but you can only project our image. 

Unfortunately, he has not given us a word for "image". We have no appropriate noun to act as direct object of the verb {cha'} that I know of. 

[I started to sign this, then remembered Kruge's line, "Who I am is not important..." Kruge was my kind of Klingon.]

Sent from my iPad

On Dec 27, 2011, at 4:16 AM, Robyn Stewart <robyn at flyingstart.ca> wrote:

> To me the commonality between the two translations is that they might both involve getting data to a screen. Either you _scan_ it from the real world and then see the results on a tricorder or you project if from a databank onto a screen. But they are often quite different actions. The "if the enemy commander hails us" example is excellent and could be bad if misunderstood, because scanning can be perceived as a hostile act.
> 
> It's a fair question and contributes to what makes me call Klingon a "trapdoor code"  : you can translate into it with a little practice, but the skill is in writing so that the meaning can be hauled back out. I pulled some  sentences with Hotlh out of my story. (Not that my story is definitive of anything. It's just 50,000 words of Klingon in one searchable file and right in front of me).
> 
> tamey Hotlhqa' vajar. ngaq Duj ta laDtaHvIS, pongDaj'e' tu'.
> 
> The intended meaning here was more the from databanks one, clear because it was established that he was looking at old computer records. laDqa' might have made as much sense.
> 
> bIghHa' Hung HotlhwI' ta nuDta' HoDvetlh.
> 
> I suppose you could have a security projector. What might it project?
> 
> DI Hotlh HoD 'ej HaStaDaq wa' 'ay' tInmoH.
> 
> This one shows the overlap. It doesn't matter whether you translate this as project or scan. He kind of had to scan it in order to project it, and the tInmoH makes it clear that something is on screen -- I hope.
> 
> "yImev." jatlh HoD. "tlhInganpu' chaH. yIHotlh."
> 
> This one is only unambigious because the previous order from the captain was "HaStaDaq."
> 
> "wIHotlhlu'!" jatlh Hung yaS.
> 
> "We have been projected" would only make sense in some bizarre context, like Klingon nerds noticing that they are featured in a slide show, and making a pun. There are a bunch of these, very similar.
> 
> rI'Se' leQ 'uy' yaS wa'DIch 'ej jatlh, "tlhIngan tlharghDuj *Dugh* boHotlhta'. pengu'egh."
> 
> Same, how would they know they had been projected?
> 
> Gaa, I use this verb a lot. 
> 
> jatlh QeDpIn �HaSta yIbej. poj Hotlh.�
> 
> An analysis isn't something you scan, so one expects it to be projected.
> 
> Som tI'ta'bogh yaS wa'DIch HotlhchoH.
> 
> Now this one is interesting, because Hota'ro' is using a tricorder that is rigged to immediately display everything she points it at on screen. So "scan" and "project" are exactly the same for her.
> 
> raS DungDaq tIHmey Hotlhlu'taHmo' chenlaw' Duj ngeb.
> 
> When I came back to proof this one, I read Hotlh as "scan" and imagined the beams scanning instead of being constant, refreshing the image faster that Klingon persistence of vision. When I first wrote it I meant project, but hey, either way kind of works.
> 
> So for the most part they are obvious because the other meaning makes no sense, disambiguated from context, or the distinction is irrelevant. 
> 
> I return to the "enemy commander" one because it's a difference that could cost lives, but unfortunately that sort of thing happens in real languages, too.  There was a serious accident at an airport not far from me because a vehicle operator was asked to "clear the runway" in preparation for the arrival of a flight. What's the problem?  The vehicle was a snowplough and the operator entered the runway to clear it instead of getting off the runway.  And then there's the classic "take off power" which can either be an instruction to apply close to maximum engine power OR a command to reduce power.
> 
> If anyone has ever died or started an unwanted war by scanning instead of projecting, Klingon captains probably learn about that pitfall, the way I learned about "take off power." 
> 
> At any rate project/scan isn't nearly as bad as ear/belt. I've started referring to "head ear" and "pants ear" in ENGLISH now.
> 
> - Qov
> 
> 
> At 17:30 26/12/2011, De'vID jonpIn wrote:
> 
>> SuStel:
>> > > I don't feel a strong link between scanning with a tricorder and
>> > > projecting something on a screen. Yes, you can put your scanned data
>> > > on a screen, but this doesn't seem to me a particularly strong reason
>> > > to assume the two words {Hotlh} are related. Maybe they are, but there's
>> > > not enough evidence to assume they are.
>> 
>> I'm not saying they're related (etymologically or whatever), I'm saying they're easily confused.
>> 
>> SuStel:
>> > > Hoqra'lIj yIlo'; Dep yIHotlh
>> > > Scan the creature with your tricorder.
>> 
>> Why isn't this "Project the creature onscreen using your tricorder (i.e., project it onto the tricorder's screen)"?
>> 
>> SuStel:
>> > > nurI'chugh jaghla', yIHotlh
>> > > If the enemy commander hails us, put him on screen.
>> 
>> Why isn't this "If the enemy commander hails us, scan him"?
>> 
>> Voragh:
>> [... re-arranging to put the two {yIHotlh} together...]
>> > {Hotlh}  project, put on (screen):
>> >
>> >  yIHotlh
>> >  Put him on the screen! TKD
>> >
>> [... poD...]
>> >
>> > {Hotlh}  scan:
>> >
>> >  yIHotlh
>> >  Scan it! KGT
>> 
>> So, there's no way to differentiate between "scan it" and "put it on screen"?
>> 
>> Voragh:
>> >  nuHotlhpu''a'
>> >  Have they scanned us? TKD
>> 
>> Again, why isn't this "Have they projected us onscreen?"  (In this example, I agree that the provided translation is much more likely though.)
>> 
>> Voragh:
>> > {HotlhwI'}  scanner
>> 
>> Why not a projector (device for projecting something on a screen)?
>> 
>> --
>> De'vID
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