<div><br></div>bI'reng:<br><div class="gmail_quote"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;"><div class="im">> Some speculation: while Okrand defines {net} as being used when the<br>
> subject of the verb is "one, someone", the examples given in TKD seem to<br>
> mean "people in general" (eg, qama'pu' DIHoH net Sov). Maybe he avoided<br>
> {net} because "people in general" did not choose the player to join the<br>
yan<br>
> 'ISletlh, but some specific unnamed person. In that case, maybe {'e'<br>
wIvlu'} is<br>
> the way to go. Some more examples of {'e'} and {net} from canon might<br>
> clarify the issue.<br>
</div></blockquote><div> </div><div>SuStel:</div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;">He's done it before:<br>
<br>
yInlu'taH 'e' bajnISlu'<br>
survival must be earned<br>
<br>
yay chavlu' 'e' bajnISlu'<br>
victory myst be earned<br>
<br>
(TKW 125)<br>
<br>
Both of these are talking about people in general, and not a specific,<br>
unnamed person. I see no reason to believe that {'e'} and {net} distinguish<br>
between these. If talking about a specific, unnamed person, I would expect<br>
to see {vay'}.</blockquote></div><div><br></div><div>It's possible that MO simply made a mistake. Nevertheless, it's not out of the question that {'e' X-lu'} and {net X} are used differently. Here is some more speculation.</div>
<div><br></div><div>Perhaps {net} is used in those instances where, were the sentence to be expressed in the passive voice (in English), the object of {net} would naturally be the subject of the passive voice sentence. For instance:</div>
<div><br></div><div> {T net Sov} "It is known that T" => "T is known"</div><div> {T net legh} "It is seen that T" => "T is seen"</div><div><br></div><div>In the above, "it" (in "it is known" or "it is seen") refers to the sentence T (e.g., T = {qama'pu' DIHoH}). But note that in the translation of the following sentence into passive voice, "it" is not the natural subject:</div>
<div><br></div><div> {Damuv 'e' wIvlu'} "someone chooses that you join it" => "<i>you</i> are chosen to join it"</div><div><br></div><div><div>The subject of "to be chosen" is not the <i>sentence</i> "you join it", but the <i>pronoun</i> "you". Or, if you will, you can say that in the sentence {X 'e' Y-lu'}, the verb Y shares the subject with the verb of the sentence X. Contrast this with:</div>
</div><div><br></div><div><div> {Damuv net wIv} "it is chosen that [you join it]" => "[you join it] is chosen"</div></div><div><br></div><div>The topic or subject here is no longer "you", but the sentence "you join it". Similarly, consider the sentence:</div>
<div><br></div><div> {yInlu'taH 'e' bajnISlu'} "someone needs to earn that someone [the same person] continues to live} => "<i>survival</i> must be earned", "<i>a person's survival</i> must be earned <i>by that same person</i>"</div>
<div><br></div><div>In the above, the subject of {baj} is the <i>same</i> (indefinite) person as the subject of {yIn}. A person must earn <i>that person</i>'s own survival. Again, contrast this with:</div><div><br></div>
<div> {yInlu'taH net bajnIS} "it must be earned that [someone continues to live]" => "[someone continues to live] must be earned"</div><div><br></div><div>It is no longer clear that {baj} has the same subject as {yIn}. Perhaps someone (say, Kirk's son David Marcus) is being held hostage, and <i>someone else</i> (Kirk) must earn the former's (David's) survival.</div>
<div><br></div><div>Note that in the other {'e' bajnISlu'} example, the preceding sentence's verb also has {-lu'}:</div><div><br></div><div> {yay chavlu' 'e' bajnISlu'} "someone needs to earn that someone [the same person] achieves victory" => "<i>victory</i> must be earned", "<i>the achievement of a victory</i> must be earned <i>by the person who achieves it</i>"</div>
<div><br></div><div>With {net}, the meaning is not the same:</div><div><br></div><div> {yay chavlu' net bajnIS} "it must be earned that [someone achieves victory]" => "[someone achieves victory] must be earned (not necessarily by the same person?)"</div>
<div><br></div><div>A sentence of the form {X-lu' 'e' Y-lu'} means that the verb Y has the same indefinite subject as the verb X, whereas no such relationship exists between the subjects of X and Y in {X-lu' net Y}. </div>
<div><br></div><div>More generally, a sentence of the form {X 'e' Y-lu'} means that the subject of the sentence X is the object of the sentence Y. Thus, {Damuv 'e' wIvlu'} is like {Damuv; <i>SoH</i> DawIvlu'}, whereas {Damuv net wIv} is like {Damuv; <i>'oH</i> wIvlu'}.</div>
<div><br></div><div>The above (highly speculative) theory fits the examples given in this thread, at least. Are there any canon examples that contradict it?</div><div><br></div>-- <br>De'vID<br>