[Tlhingan-hol] KLBC: "shut up or I'll hit you"

[lojmIttI'wI'nuv]

I’m pretty sure that {bIjeghbe’chugh vaj bIHegh} is in TKD, while {bIje’be’chugh vaj bIHegh} is in Conversational Klingon (an audio tape and CD).

Again, you do have the option of using {pagh}. There’s nothing wrong with {bIjegh pagh bIHegh} (so long as you are willing to make sure that the person you are talking to doesn’t die even after surrendering), but you can’t link an imperative with a statement and get the meaning that you are intending.

If you want to make an imperative statement just do it. {yItam!}. Maybe make two statements {yItam! qaqIp ‘e’ vIqellI’.} Literally, “Be quiet! I’m considering hitting you.” Or be clever, like {yItam! tlhoS qaqIpchoH.} “Be quiet! I’ve almost begun to hit you."

Here’s the problem:

If I say, “You are quiet”, that is either true, or it is false. If I say, “I hit you”, then that is true or false. So {pagh} says A is true or B is true, where “You are quiet” is A and “I hit you” is B.

So, looking at it this way, is “BE QUIET!” true or false?

See what I mean? Imperatives are not true or false. They are imperatives. {pagh} only works between things that are true or false.

pItlh
lojmIt tI'wI'nuv



> On Feb 24, 2016, at 4:53 PM, John R. Harness <cartweel at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Ah, now I see where this is being discussed in the one-sentence game thread.
> 
> qunnoq said:
> 
> "Recently, Qov had pointed out to me (thank you Qov !) that the klingon
> word {pagh} (conj) <or, either/or>, cannot be used in klingon, in the
> same way that we would say in english <surrender or die>.
> 
> The formula in klingon is {...-chugh vaj ...} <if you do/don't
> (whatever) then (consequences)>. So, in your example the correct way
> to put it would be..."
> 
> Qov, or anyone else, where is this formula established in the canon? (I'm not arguing against it, I'm just looking for a citation. A quick glance through the dictionary didn't turn anything up for me.)
> 
> So then, QISta', if it is the case that there is simply a formula for this sort of statement, then that formula must be used.
> 
> ***{bItamchoHbe'chugh vaj qaqIp.} it is, then.***
> 
> Thanks for bringing up this question!!
> 
> 
> --
> 
> Socialist Alternative <http://www.socialistalternative.org/>
> Klingon Language Institute <http://www.kli.org/>
> On Wed, Feb 24, 2016 at 3:45 PM, John R. Harness <cartweel at gmail.com <mailto:cartweel at gmail.com>> wrote:
> QISta': I don't think what you've written breaks any rules, but it seems to me that Qov is suggesting a more stylistic way of doing it...
> 
> Qov: Thanks for the advice, but that raises more questions than it provides answers for me.
> 
> bIjeghbe'chugh vaj bIHegh. -> Surrender or die.
> 
> Actually it says: "If you do not surrender, then you die."
> 
> I suppose you are suggesting: {bItamchoHbe'chugh vaj qaqIp.} "If you don't become quiet, then I hit you."
> 
> For what is meant to be such an imperative sentiment, why is the imperative avoided here? Why not {yIjegh vaj yIHegh}? Why not {yItamchoH pagh qaqIp}? 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --
> 
> Socialist Alternative <http://www.socialistalternative.org/>
> Klingon Language Institute <http://www.kli.org/>
> On Wed, Feb 24, 2016 at 12:33 PM, Robyn Stewart <robyn at flyingstart.ca <mailto:robyn at flyingstart.ca>> wrote:
> Look up how to say “surrender or die” in Klingon, and then answer the question yourself.
> 
>  
> 
> From: chransberry at gmail.com <mailto:chransberry at gmail.com> [mailto:chransberry at gmail.com <mailto:chransberry at gmail.com>] 
> Sent: February 24, 2016 10:02
> To: tlhingan-hol at kli.org <mailto:tlhingan-hol at kli.org>
> Subject: [Tlhingan-hol] KLBC: "shut up or I'll hit you"
> 
>  
> 
> So, I'm wondering about this construction, {yItamchoH pagh qaqIp}. That is, an imperative connected to a declarative, as a threat - does that work?
> 
> -QISta'
> Pardon my woeful ignorance
> 
> 
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