[Tlhingan-hol] Type 5 on first noun

[Brent Kesler]

On Wed, Feb 10, 2016 at 12:08 PM, SuStel <sustel at trimboli.name> wrote:

> On 2/10/2016 11:41 AM, Brent Kesler wrote:
>
> [snip derivation]
>
> If we recast the Type 5 rule as "A Type 5 suffix can only go on the
>> second element of a noun phrase", and we can have multiple noun phrases
>> embedded within a larger noun phrase, then phrases like {QamchIyDaq
>> 'uQ'a'} fit the rule.
>>
>
> That makes the rule completely meaningless then. Why does it exist if you
> can simply redefine the first noun as a noun phrase that includes a
> syntactic suffix?
>


I addressed that question:

TKD is a grammatical sketch, not a comprehensive description. It was
> written in 1985 as a quick and dirty guide for non-linguists, so sometimes
> MO uses vague and imprecise hints rather than formal rules.


This debate isn't so much about how we understand noun phrases, but about
how we interpret TKD. We're treating a doodle on a napkin as a set of
blueprints, and trying to figure out why our plane won't fly.



> The rule says that {QamchIyDaq 'uQ'a'} is illegal, period.
>

Yet MO keeps producing such phrases, and he's our authority on these
matters. How do we explain that? Either he's consistently making an
egregious mistake--a mistake on the level of saying "The Feast Kramchee
At"--or there's some deeper story to the rule. I think the second is more
plausible. Maybe my deeper story is wrong, but I think it's more plausible
than MO butchering the language.


Qov offers a good counterargument to my deeper story:

On Wed, Feb 10, 2016 at 1:09 PM, <qov at kli.org> wrote:

>
> I would fight derisively against anything resembling *{Dun  QamchIyDaq
> 'uQ'a'}. The only reason 'uQ'a' can follow QamchIyDaq is that everything in
> a sentence can follow QamchIyDaq.


I have to agree: *{Dun QamchIyDaq 'uQ'a'} sounds wrong, and it destroys my
theory.


bI'reng
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