[Tlhingan-hol] Because you mentioned it (Was: Expressing instrumentality)

[lojmIttI'wI'nuv]

This is why I hate this construction. You, SuStel, and I don’t seem to be able to agree on what it means, so perhaps it’s a good idea to avoid this construction, unless Okrand ever gets around to explaining it better. Unless Voragh has evidence as to how this should be interpreted.

So, help me out here. If I want to say “Krankor taught Seqram the Klingon language,” should I say, {tlhIngan HolvaD Seqram ghojmoHta' Qanqor} or should I say, {SeqramvaD tlhIngan Hol ghojmoHta’ HoD Qanqor.}

pItlh
lojmIt tI'wI'nuv



> On Apr 20, 2016, at 8:04 PM, Rhona Fenwick <qeslagh at hotmail.com> wrote:
> 
> ghItlhpu' lojmIt tI'wI' nuv, jatlh:
> > And the ever popular ditransitive, which I hate:
> > HoDvaD betleHwIj vIHoHmoH.
> > Note that according to current interpretations of the ditransitivity
> > of {-moH}, this does not imply that I killed someone else for the
> > benefit of the captain. It rather directly suggests that the captain
> > is the object of the transitive verb {HoH}, while {betleHwIj} is the
> > subject, and the implied {jIH} is the agent of causation (my term).
> 
> It suggests no such thing. In {HoDvaD betleHwIj vIHoHmoH}, {betleHwIj} remains the object, and so the sentence as written means "I cause the captain to kill my bat'leth" - grammatical, but nonsensical on its face.
> 
> {betleHwIjvaD HoD vIHoHmoH} is the only form of the construction that could mean "I make my bat'leth kill the captain". Remember that when {-moH} is used on a transitive verb with an explicit object, it demotes what would be the *subject* of the non-causative form of the verb to indirect object position. The object remains as it is, in the same syntactic role. Viz:
> 
> ghaHvaD quHDaj qawmoH
> "it reminds him of his heritage" (S20)
> 
> where the non-causative form would be {quHDaj qaw} "he remembers his heritage".
> 
> QeS 'utlh
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