[Tlhingan-hol] Things missing

[David Holt]

Let's keep this list about the language and not about personalities.  Perhaps the two of you can work out your personally differences in private email.  I'll try not to speak too much on behalf of lojmIt tI'wI' nuv because I don't necessarily agree with how he responded to you and he is perfectly capable of defending himself.  But I have to admit that, to some extent, I can see what led him to react that way.


I really enjoy that you have brought some new energy into the discussions and I look forward to your increasing ability with the language.  I am going to discourage you a bit from these types of discussions, but please understand that I don't want you to give up on them, but just to put them aside for a little while.  I think you will be much better equipped to discuss them more knowledgeably once you have studied Klingon for longer and become skilled at speaking (or at least writing) it.  For now, I would much rather see your efforts and energies going into learning how to use the tools we have rather than imaging tools that could be in some theoretical future.  When it seems like a tool is missing, ask the experienced speakers what they do about it, rather than tell them that their workshop is broken.


> > It’s a little disrespectful of all that support to express excessive demands that you apparently believe are owed to you because you are so gracious as to invest your valuable time and skill toward learning it.

>
> you know,as english in not my native language i always make sure that after i write an email,i read it again so as to make sure that i have not made any mistakes. Surely some typographic errors almost always
>are missed,but i believe that i would see whether i wrote something "disrespectful". You suggest that i'm arrogant,determined to be "the big boss". Seriously ? After all i wrote this is your conclusion ? What i
> wrote is my opinion about what is missing from the Klingon language,for it to be made complete. It was my opinion,and i believe mailing lists/forums etc. exist for the exchange of ideas,between people who
>have similar interests.

It's not that the language you are using is disrespectful.  I didn't realize that English was not your first language, but I think that's a testament to how well you use the language.  It feels a little like the request itself, no matter how politely put nor well intentioned, is a little disrespectful.

> > Don’t disrespect that opportunity by demanding that all politics within the group change to accommodate your new idea of how things ought to be done.
>
> apparently you believe that you own Klingon language,and that you have the authority to pass judgement on anyone who would say that there are things missing ; that anyone new who refuses to "shut up"
> and say how wonderful everything is must be characterized in the worst way,and be black-listed.

lojmIt tI'wI' nuv knows that he doesn't own the language and I'm sure he's admit that he makes mistakes in the language.  I think what we'd like you to understand is that many of the issues that you are bringing up become much clearer once you have years of experience.  It sounds, even to me, a little like you are saying, "I know I'm very new to this and I know you guys have decades of experience, but here are the problems that I see in your thing."  These are not new suggestions, they have been talked over many times by many people, both new to the language and experienced speakers.  Dismissing your concerns outright is not the appropriate response, but the questions you ask show a fundamental misunderstanding of the problems that can only be corrected by learning and using the language over many years.  The answers are not simple and require you to have a much deeper grasp of the language than you do right now.  It feels like you are assuming that we have either failed to recognize the problems or failed to address them and that feels a little insulting to those of us that have worked hard on the language for decades.  We would love to help you understand all the nuances and subtitles of the challenges in the Klingon language, but those are best saved for once you have a firm grasp on the basics and are able to actually communicate in the language.  And there are plenty of clear fundamentals for you to work on, so your time is better spent on those for now.

> >  Are you prepared to spend money to get the Klingon language fixed? Or are you just expecting a bunch of volunteers to do this for you?
>
> did i write that money should be spent ? did i write that i do not recognize that there are practical problems ? I wrote what would be nice to exist/happen. I believe that from my first post i wrote how i
> realize that there are copyright issues,which i understand and respect.

He seems to be trying to extend your metaphor to show you what he feels you are missing about this scenario.  I think we should take this scenario in a different direction.  It's not a question of having the ligament fixed or giving up on having a meaningful life.  Plenty of people live full and happy lives without being able to walk.  You wouldn't walk up to one of them and say, "Why don't you have it fixed?  Why wouldn't you prefer to be perfect?"  But the whole metaphor is bad because walking is a pretty significant requirement in our society.  The problems Klingon has are not nearly as significant as that.  It's more like plastic surgery.  If after knowing someone for a very short time, you suddenly said, "Why don't you have your nose straightened?  And your tummy bulge cut out?  And your chin tucked?  And your boobs reduced?"  It's insulting and indicates a fundamental misunderstanding of what makes them who they are.

EVERY language has weaknesses when compared to other language (and that also means they have strengths in comparison, as well).  It's part of the beauty of language and one of the things I love about Klignon compared to other invented languages like Esperanto or Lojban.  Those languages are often too perfect - they are boring and uninteresting to me.  Klingon has all these wonderful ways of expressing things that are just plain fun.  I would be so sad if they were "fixed".  To me, it's not a question of recognizing the logistical problems in fixing the language, but a question of recognizing that the language is functional and thriving as it is and that the problems it has are part of its beauty.  If you want "perfect" work on Vulcan.  If you want a language with some endearing flaws and some amazing capabilities for functioning even with those flaws, then Klingon is your language.

janSIy
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