[Tlhingan-hol] KLBC: plural in nationalities

Fri Nov 13 01:58:14 PST 2015

> Please let me know if this is unclear or sparks new questions !

thank you 'arHa for replying (and everyone else too). Things are clearer
now.

On Fri, Nov 13, 2015 at 5:13 AM, chransberry at gmail.com <
chransberry at gmail.com> wrote:

> lojmIt tI'wI' nuv 'utlh wrote:
>
> >>Holmey pongmey vIyajnISbe’ba’. qaS neH. ngIq ghojnISlu’. There are no
> universal rules for language names. The rules attempt to describe the
> examples. The examples were not created by using rules. While every rule
> has exceptions, with enough exceptions, the rule shows itself not to be a
> very good rule.
> [Endquote]
>
> Does any language have set rules for language names? In my experience,
> languages are named after whatever's handy - a place, a people group, maybe
> even an emperor.
>
> -QISta'
>
>
> ----- Reply message -----
> From: "lojmIt tI'wI' nuv 'utlh" <lojmitti7wi7nuv at gmail.com>
> Date: Thu, Nov 12, 2015 18:47
> Subject: [Tlhingan-hol] KLBC: plural in nationalities
> To: "tlhInganHol discussion group" <tlhingan-hol at kli.org>
>
> wejpuH.
>
> Learn the rules and the rules change.
>
> So, since {tlhIngan Hol} actually means {tlhIngan wo’ Hol} that suggests
> that {tlhIngan wo’} means “a Klingon’s empire, and what we are really
> saying is, “a Klingon’s empire’s language”.
>
> No wonder they shortened it.
>
> Hmm.
>
> But since it also can be called {ta’ Hol}, that suggests that it’s also
> “the emperor’s language”. So, even though there may be a lot of tlhInganpu’
> who speak the language, only the emperor gets the language named after his
> rank. Others may speak other Klingon languages or dialects, but though they
> are Klingons, they can’t call what they speak {tlhIngan Hol} unless it’s
> the emperor’s dialect. And I guess that other Klingon planets that speak
> ta’ Hol don’t get a language named after their planet, like everybody
> else...
>
> But Vulcans apparently don’t have a leader who dictates the current
> dialect, assuming that Vulcans HAVE any dialects, and it’s apparently
> appropriate to name the language after the planet instead of the people who
> live there, or any individuals who live there. And Ferengi and Earth and
> all the other planets and the Federation…
>
> Hmm.
>
> So, tera’nganpu’ speak Federation Standard, and though the Vulcans are
> part of the Federation, they speak the language named after their planet…
> when they aren’t speaking DIvI’ Hol, of course… And all the other planets
> of the Federation and the countries in them seem to speak their own
> language, plus Federation Standard…
>
> wejpuH.
>
> Holmey pongmey vIyajnISbe’ba’. qaS neH. ngIq ghojnISlu’. There are no
> universal rules for language names. The rules attempt to describe the
> examples. The examples were not created by using rules. While every rule
> has exceptions, with enough exceptions, the rule shows itself not to be a
> very good rule.
>
> lojmIt tI’wI’ nuv ‘utlh
> Door Repair Guy, Retired Honorably
>
>
>
> > On Nov 12, 2015, at 5:15 PM, Felix Malmenbeck <felixm at kth.se> wrote:
> >
> > > Meanwhile, you wouldn’t tend to call it {Qo’noS Hol} because the planet
> > > doesn’t speak the language. It’s inhabitants do.
> >
> > My interpretation is somewhat different, mainly due to the fact that
> Marc Okrand has explaind that the main dialect of {tlhIngan Hol} should
> more appropriately be called {tlhIngan wo' Hol}, "the language of the
> Klingon Empire" (and the main dialect is {ta' tlhIngan Hol}).
> >
> > http://klingonska.org/canon/2012-04-01-email.txt <
> http://klingonska.org/canon/2012-04-01-email.txt>
> >
> > In that same e-mail, he also specified that the standard way to refer to
> a national langauge would be "contry + Hol", rather than "country+ngan +
> Hol".
> >
> > From: Will Martin <lojmitti7wi7nuv at gmail.com>
> > Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2015 22:50
> > To: tlhInganHol discussion group
> > Subject: Re: [Tlhingan-hol] KLBC: plural in nationalities
> >
> > For what it’s worth, I would have said {vulcan loD} and not {vulqangan
> loD}, since you’d be talking about a man of the planet Vulcan and not a man
> of a Vulcan (as in perhaps a servant or slave owned by a Vulcan). Yes, I
> know about the genitive. The relationship between the man and the planet is
> genitive. The relationship between the man and a Vulcan person is, to my
> ear, not so much.
> >
> > Keep in mind that Okrand has explained to us that {tlhIngan Hol}
> literally means “a Klingon’s language”, or “the language of a Klingon”.
> {tlhIngan} remains a noun at all times and is not, as is commonly
> translated into English, an adjective. Meanwhile, you wouldn’t tend to call
> it {Qo’noS Hol} because the planet doesn’t speak the language. It’s
> inhabitants do.
> >
> > pItlh
> > lojmIt tI'wI'nuv
> >
> >
> >
> >> On Nov 12, 2015, at 2:35 PM, Elizabeth Lawrence <
> elizabeth.lawrence08 at gmail.com <mailto:elizabeth.lawrence08 at gmail.com>>
> wrote:
> >>
> >> I think that qunnoQ was asking about insulting people by calling them
> "Ferengi dogs."  In that case, if he is using the construction <<verengan
> Ha'DIbaH>>, Ha'DIbaH is the descriptor.
> >>
> >> This is somewhat idiomatic, so I am not certain that it makes sense as
> a Klingon insult.  Not all cultures consider animals inferior/insulting in
> this way.  However, I would not use a plural at all (they are always
> optional as 'arHa' pointed out).  Instead, I would say it as a complete
> sentence.
> >>
> >> verengan Ha'DIbaH SoH!
> >> You are a Ferengi dog!
> >>
> >> verengan Ha'DIbaH tlhIH!
> >> You (plural) are Ferengi dogs!
> >>
> >> This uses the pronoun to specify the plural, and makes it clear that it
> is an insult, rather than a description of Ferengi animals.
> >>
> >> For the first set of questions, I would personally translate it thus:
> >>
> >> vulqangan loD - the Vulcan man
> >>
> >> vulqanganpu' - the Vulcans (a group of vulcans)
> >>
> >> Hoch vulqanganpu' - the Vulcan people (all the vulcans)
> >>
> >>
> >> I hope this helps,
> >> be''etlh
> >>
> >> On Thu, Nov 12, 2015
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Tlhingan-hol mailing list
> Tlhingan-hol at kli.org
> http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol
>
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://mail.kli.org/pipermail/tlhingan-hol/attachments/20151113/cd7241f4/attachment.html>