[Tlhingan-hol] The Klingon Is MUCH Braver ...

Wed Jan 7 06:57:27 PST 2015

I like this suggestion. It doesn't require stretching or reinterpreting existing grammar and it clearly expresses the meaning.

The comparative in Klingon is, I think, a very limited grammatical construction with a specific and simple function. In English, we have variations with a wider range of expressive functionality, so it is natural for us to try to stretch the Klingon grammar to get that same range of expressivity. I suspect we show greater skill level with the language when we reach for those ends using different grammatical tools, just as you have done.

If what you wish to express doesn't fit the Klingon comparative, then don't use the Klingon comparative. As you've shown clearly, there are alternative grammatical constructions that do the job better.

Maybe someday, Okrand will expand on the comparative in a way that gives it a wider range of expressivity. I think that was part of the goal behind allowing other contrasting adjectives than {law'} and {puS}, though to be honest, the use of other adjectives here has always seemed more poetic than anything else, and I'm not that much of a poet, so it has not been that useful to me, though maybe this is a tool that would work here?

tlhIngan yoH pup verengan yoH QIv.

tlhIngan yoH watlh verengan yoH qal.

tlhIngan yoH qar verengan yoH ngeb.

tlhIngan yoH quv verengan yoH HoQ.

Hmm. This is the first time I can remember that I've even tried these non-{law/puS} comparatives, because I thought of them as poetic and I don't think of myself as a poet. Perhaps careful use of this option could give you what you seek?

lojmIt tI’wI’ nuv ‘utlh
Retired Door Repair Guy

> On Jan 7, 2015, at 12:19 AM, nIqolay Q <niqolay0 at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> On Tue, Jan 6, 2015 at 5:03 PM,  <lojmitti7wi7nuv at gmail.com <mailto:lojmitti7wi7nuv at gmail.com>> wrote:
>> If you assume that {loQ} works for a small degree of difference, then why not use {pe’vIl} or even {tlhoy} to indicate great difference or too much difference? Why choose a different grammatical mechanism to indicate a greater degree of contrast than you use for a smaller degree of contrast than the assumed norm?
> 
> Because the underlying concepts are typically expressed with different
> grammatical mechanisms: the concept of doing something slightly is
> expressed with an adverbial, {loQ}, while doing something very much is
> expressed most generically with a verbal suffix, {-qu'}. {tlhoy} would
> work if the intent was to express "too much", but that's not
> necessarily the same as "very much". As for {pe'vIl}, has it ever been
> used with a verb that didn't express some physical activity? Otherwise
> I don't think there's a reason to assume it works as a generic
> intensifier, especially for stative verbs.
> 
> I've noticed occasionally that {-qu'} appears to sometimes have a
> comparative interpretation in some contexts, such as the instances in
> TKW where "best" is translated as {nIvqu'} or {QaQqu'}. Perhaps the
> translation {yoHqu' tlhIngan; yoHbe'qu' verengan} would suffice, with
> the comparison implied by the two contrasting sentences.
> 
>> lojmIt tI’wI’ nuv ‘utlh
>> Retired Door Repair Guy
>> 
>>> On Jan 6, 2015, at 3:31 PM, Felix Malmenbeck <felixm at kth.se> wrote:
>>> 
>>> We do have the formula "A Q law'be' B Q puSbe'" for negating the comparative.
>>> http://klingonska.org/canon/2004-03-holqed-13-1.txt
>>> 
>>> While not quite the same , I would wager a guess that you could use -qu' in the same way, adding it to both law' and puS.
>>> 
>>> Another solution might be to make a two-sentence construction out of it, such as «tlhIngan yoH law' verengan yoH puS. pImqu'.»
>>> That's highly ambiguous, though; it could simply mean "The Klingon is braver than the Ferengi, and as such they are very different."
>>> Perhaps there's some better verb for this.
>>> 
>>> ________________________________________
>>> From: Fiat Knox [fiat_knox at yahoo.co.uk]
>>> Sent: Tuesday, January 06, 2015 21:09
>>> To: Klingon Mailing List
>>> Subject: [Tlhingan-hol] The Klingon Is MUCH Braver ...
>>> 
>>> I'm looking at comparatives and superlatives at the moment.
>>> 
>>> tlhIngan yoH law' verengan yoH puS is practically a set phrase.
>>> 
>>> But has the topic cropped up where the difference is great - The Klingon is much braver than the Ferengi?
>>> 
>>> When describing slight differences, I've often used loQ before comparatives - loQ tera'ngan yoH law' verengan yoH puS The Terran is slightly braver than a Ferengi for instance - but where there is a great difference, has the topic of expressing this greater difference cropped up?
>>> And I don't mean by use of superlatives - tlhIngan yoH law' Hoch yoH puS either.
>>> 
>>> An example: a comment has been thrown in my direction asking why law'qu' cannot be used, where to my knowledge {A X law'qu' B X puS} has not been seen in the wild. I've not seen this being discussed before here. I'd appreciate discussion on this.
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Tlhingan-hol mailing list
>>> Tlhingan-hol at kli.org
>>> http://mail.kli.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol
>> 
>> 
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