[Tlhingan-hol] "Knitting" in Klingon

[Felix Malmenbeck]

To the best of my knowledge, the only known example of SIv with an object:

{tlhIngan Hol Dajatlh 'e' vISIv.}
http://klingonska.org/canon/search/?file=1998-06-holqed-07-2.txt&get=source

Marc goes into some detail on this, so he seems to have thought it through:

==========

The fourth example is weird from an English translation point of view,
but it falls right in line in Klingon. If the English translation matched the
pattern of the other three sentences, it would be "I wonder that you speak
Klingon." In English, this means something like "I'm surprised that you
speak Klingon" or "I don't understand how it can be that you speak
Klingon," but this is not what the Klingon sentence means. The Klingon
sentence means something more like "I am curious about whether you speak
Klingon." The clumsiness here is the English, not the Klingon.

==========

So this would seem to support De'vID's phrasing. Yours still works though, as far as I can tell, and in some cases may even be preferable, when one wishes to use multiple short sentences instead of a single long one.

However, it's still unresolved how one might say "I wonder where you are." or "I wonder what you want." Perhaps Klingons never say anything quite like that, butif they do, I think your suggestion (question? + jISIv.)

Regarding questions as objects:

We do have a canon example, from EuroTalk: {nuq Datlhutlh DaneH?}

However, it's worth noting that this is still a question, and {nuq} still fills the same role as in a simple sentence.
In other words, {nuq} doesn't become a relative pronoun or anything like that.

So, this doesn't motivate, say, translating "I wonder what they're drinking." as {nuq lutlhutlhtaH 'e' vISIv}
I would instead interpret this Klingon sentence as "What is it that I wonder whether or not they're drinking?", which is not a question I'd expect to hear outside of a course on mind-reading.

This particular statement can probably be rephrased as a question (nuq lutlhutlhtaH?) in most circumstances, but other statements of wonderment may require different solutions.

1 nov 2014 kl. 22:10 skrev lojmIt tI'wI' nuv 'utlh <lojmitti7wi7nuv at gmail.com<mailto:lojmitti7wi7nuv at gmail.com>>:

You have a good point, that {-chugh} turns what would be a sentence into a dependent clause, and {‘e’} is for “Sentence As Object”, not “Dependent Clause As Object”, but you’ve apparently missed the use of {neH} meaning “only”.

The literal translation (if Klingon were a code) would be:

"Well done. I wonder if only I did not see the word-joke."

That makes sense in English, but it doesn’t really make sense in Klingon because, as you point out, the grammar is broken.

I’d go with something like:

nIteb mu’qID vIghovbe’pu’’a’? jISIv.

or

mu’qID vIghovbe’pu’. lughovbe’pu’’a’ latlhpu' je?

Another somewhat controversial grammar issue is whether or not {‘e’} works with “Question As Object”. If that was ever resolved, I don’t remember it. I’m among the doubters that it works.

For me, that’s what makes {SIv} a challenge to use well, except as a simple statement.

Though I suspect I’m about to be corrected and reminded of canon I’ve forgotten...

lojmIt tI’wI’ nuv ‘utlh
Door Repair Guy, Retired Honorably



On Nov 1, 2014, at 2:38 AM, De'vID <de.vid.jonpin at gmail.com<mailto:de.vid.jonpin at gmail.com>> wrote:

SuStel:
Or not so obvious. 'ach loymeH Quj vIpar.

Voragh:
maj.  mu'qID vIleghbe'chugh jIH neH 'e' vISIv.  HIchuH!

I read that as "I wonder whether he'd want it, if I didn't see the
word-joke." Doesn't {SIv} already contain the sense of "wonder if"? I
don't think {-chugh} can combine with {SIv} like that, though.

--
De'vID

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