[Tlhingan-hol] 'arDaq

[SuStel]

On 6/18/2014 9:50 AM, lojmitti7wi7nuv at gmail.com wrote:
> It may be clear to you that {quSDaq 'ar nav vIlannIS?} is correct and
> {quS 'arDaq nav vIlannIS?} is incorrect, but it's less clear to the
> rest of us that you are necessarily right.

lugh De'vID 'e' ponbe'. vuDDaj nujatlh neH. jIHvaD bIjatlhbe'.

> The issue is that Type 5 noun suffixes migrate from the noun to
> which they'd normally apply in two known instances:
>
> 1. In a noun phrase consisting of a noun followed by an adjective
> describing the noun, the adjective gets the noun's Type 5 suffix.
> {quS tInDaq nav yIlan.}
>
> 2. In a noun-noun construction the first noun can't have a Type 5
> noun suffix. It goes to the second noun.

There is no such rule that I'm aware of. You can't have a type 5 noun
suffix on the first noun of a noun-noun construction, but there's no
rule about it migrating.

> This is an odd rule since it's non-trivial trying to come up with an
> example where you'd be tempted to put the Type 5 on the first noun.
> Maybe I've just been following this rule so long that I can't think
> of a reason to want to break it...

Krankor has been known to break this rule with his {mIvDaq yIH} "tribble 
in a helmet" (i.e., cat in the hat). Okrand also breaks the rule on the 
Bird of Prey poster, though I can't recall the exact phrases. I've seen 
lots of people on this list break the rule in the same way, so it's not 
non-trivial.

> Anyway, until we saw rule #1, we'd be just as sure as you are that
> {-Daq} goes on the noun, because it's a noun suffix and {'ar} isn't a
> noun. But adjectives aren't nouns, either, and {quS 'ar} may very
> well be the kind of noun phrase that gets the Type 5 migrated to the
>  end of the phrase instead of following the noun within the phrase.

You're looking at it as if you're starting with the phrase {quS 'ar} and 
trying to figure out where to put {-Daq}. Why not look at it as if 
you're starting with {quSDaq} and trying to figure out where to put {'ar}?

Or, to state it another way, {quSDaq} is a noun. {'ar} goes after the 
noun. No further known rule applies.

> We simply don't know. The topic has not been raised until now.

It think it probably has, but no one has searched for a link to the 
archives.

> On Jun 18, 2014, at 5:37 AM, De'vID <de.vid.jonpin at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Qov:
>>>> I imagine that at some point I have said something like one of
>>>>  the following in conversation, completely unaware that I was
>>>> doing anything odd.
>>>>
>>>> ?quS 'arDaq nav vIlannIS? - How many chairs do I need to place
>>>>  paper on? ?HoH 'armo' bortaS wISuq?- How many killings will we
>>>>  get vengeance for? ?nuv 'arvaD Soj wIje'nIS? - How many people
>>>>  do we need to buy food for?
>>
>> Voragh:
>>> Based on no canon whatsoever, I would place the suffix on the
>>> noun:
>>>
>>> ?quSDaq 'ar nav vIlannIS? ?HoHmo' 'ar bortaS wISuq?
>>>
>>> [Don't forget the verb {noD} "retaliate, seek revenge":  ?HoHmo'
>>>  'ar manoD?]
>>>
>>> ?nuvvaD 'ar Soj wIje'nIS?
>>>
>>> I don't have time to do more searching, but have we seen any of
>>> the other question words used with these suffixes?
>>
>> In TKD 6.4, only {nuq} and {'Iv} are said to occupy the place that
>> would have been taken by the answer in the sentence. It is said of
>> {'ar} that it follows the noun to which it refers (which can't be
>> plural). There's no hint that it behaves anything like {nuq} or
>> {'Iv}. Not all the question words are nouns.
>>
>> Since {quS} is the noun in {quS 'ar} "how many chairs", to me it's
>> fairly clear that "at/on how many chairs" is {quSDaq 'ar} and not
>> *{quS 'arDaq}.
>>
>> Qov:
>>>> These two feel weirder, especially the last. I would omit the
>>>> –‘e’ ?tera’Daq be’ ‘IH ‘ar tu’lu’? – How many beautiful women
>>>> are there on Earth? ?muj mu’tlhegh ‘ar’e’ qonbogh Qov?
>>
>> No problem accepting {tera'Daq be' 'IH 'ar tu'lu'}, though I'd
>> also accept {tera'Daq be' 'ar 'IH tu'lu'}. The latter follows the
>> letter of TKD more closely, since it says that adjectival verbs
>> immediately follow the noun, whereas of {'ar} it merely says it
>> follows the noun.
>>
>> I'd have put the suffix {-'e'} on the noun {mu'tlhegh} rather than
>>  on the question word {'ar} following the noun, as in {muj
>> mu'tlhegh'e' 'ar qonbogh Qov}.
>>
>> -- De'vID
>>
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>
>
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SuStel
http://www.trimboli.name/