[Tlhingan-hol] Ozymandias

Thu Sep 19 18:18:09 PDT 2013

On 2013-09-19, at 0:58, nIqolay q <niqolay0 at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Wed, Sep 18, 2013 at 2:07 PM, Robyn Stewart <robyn at flyingstart.ca> wrote:
>> bom vImaSbogh 'oH.  Do'Ha' jabbI'ID'e' labbogh nIqolay vIleghlaHbe'.
>> chImlaw' jabbI'IDDaj. jIHvaD yIlabqa', nIqolay, 'a DaH mutlhu' qechlIj.
> 
> I'm not fluent enough to easily decipher large blocks of Klingon,

That would probably be the wrong point on the Klingon-learning journey for you to be translating my favourite sonnet, but at least I can be braced for it. 

> Sep ngo'qu'vo' lengpu'bogh vay' vIqIH.

I'm not sure if this has already been discussed, but when you have a N5 on a noun in a relative clause I'm not super happy with it not being the head noun. Initially I had a similar construction, but used ghot instead of vay' and tIQ instead of ngo', but changed it. 

> jatlh. DebDaq Qam tInqu'bogh cha' negh 'uSDu' 'ej ro Hutlhbogh.

I always find that 'ej Xbogh construction awkward, but it's canon. 

> bIHDaq Sum qab ghorlu'bogh. bID qab So' Deb lam.

I like Deb lam for sand. 

> nuj QeH, wuS vIl, ra'wI' mon bIr je ghaj qab.

Do we know mon to be a noun meaning smile? I only know it as capital. I didn't want to assume that the metaphorical cold would translate into Klingon. I think I used wIH. 

> nongmoHwI'mey tu'chu'ta' Hew chenmoHwI' 'e' ja' bIH.

I'm sure someone's already told you not to say 'e' ja'. I'd use 'ang.

> taHtaH nongmoHwI'meyvetlh. yInbe'bogh DochmeyvamDaq lughItlhlu'ta'.

Very literal. 

> Heghpu' chenqa'moHbogh ghop je'bogh tIq je.

I never really liked that line in the English, but is that really what it means?

> Hew QutlhwI'Daq nargh mu'meyvam.

I question whether English appear in that sense is appropriately translated with nargh. 

> <<'oSIymanDI'yaS, ta'pu' ta', 'oH pongwIj'e'.

> ta'meywIj tItu', HoSghajwI', 'ej petulHa'.>>

HoSghajwI' vIparHa'. 

> ratlh pagh latlh.
> raghpu'bogh pIgh'a'vetlh Dechbogh yoS'a'Daq, chImchu' veH Hutlhbogh Deb'e'.

Nice. 

> 
> I do like your version, though. Much less wordy, for one.
> 
>> Sep tIQ Dabbogh lengwI' vIqIH. jatlh ghaH,
>> DebDaq QamtaH cha' nagh 'uSDu' tIn.
>> bIHDaq Sum, bID mollu', QottaH qab.
> 
> mol is a useful word here that I had forgotten about.
> 
>> monHa'taHmo' Quch wIH 'ej ra'law'taHmo' wuS
>> po'ba' Hew chenmoHwI', vaqtaHvIS ghop.
> 
> "Mock" in the original "the hand that mocked them" is an older meaning
> of the word meaning to create an imitation, I'm not sure vaq would
> mean the same thing.

As I said before, I never got that line. In fact I forgot it and when my sonnet didn't have enough lines had to look it up. Thank you. 

>> nongtaH yIn Hutlhbogh Dochmeyvam.
>> 'ej QutlhwI'chajDaq mu'vam lughItlhlu':
>> Ozymandius ta''a' 'oH pongwIj'e'.
>> ta'meywIj tIlegh, HoSwI'pu', 'ej peHaj.
>> pa' retlhDaq ratlhtaH pagh.
>> Hewvetlh pIgh tInqu' luDech puH chIm
>> pa'vo' HopDaq taH beQqu'bogh lam mob.
> 
> pa'vo' HopDaq doesn't make a lot of sense to me though.

It doesn't make sense and it's not grammatical. As I said I wrote it quickly, and seem to have written down half a thought or incompletely deleted something.

> Would Daq
> HopDaq taH "continues to a faraway place" work better?

I originally had Sep HopDaq or something. Without a noun to modify, Hop can't have the -Daq. Your version here is better. You definitely put more thought into it. 

I am quite delighted that you competently translated the meaning of the poem (and knew what they meant better than I do) and didn't get sucked into trying to copy the sentence structure and meter. 

majQa'. 

> 
>> 
>> - Qov
>> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nIqolay q [mailto:niqolay0 at gmail.com]
>> Sent: September 18, 2013 11:01 AM
>> To: tlhingan-hol at kli.org
>> Subject: Re: [Tlhingan-hol] Ozymandias
>> 
>> On Wed, Sep 18, 2013 at 11:17 AM, Steven Boozer <sboozer at uchicago.edu>
>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> nIqolay q:
>>>> I tried translating Percy Bysshe Shelley's poem, "Ozymandias", into
>>>> Klingon. It is not an easy poem to translate.
>>> 
>>> This will take a while to process, but first impressions...
>>> 
>>>> I met a traveller from an antique land Sep ngo'qu'vo' lengpu'bogh
>>>> vay' vIqIH.
>>> 
>>> This is a good opportunity to use {tIQ} "be ancient" - we are talking
>> about Egypt after all.  Also why not simply say {lengwI'} "traveller"
>> instead of {lengpu'bogh vay'} "someone who has travelled"?  E.g.
>>> 
>>>  Sep tIQvo' lengwI' vIqIH
>> 
>> I wasn't sure if nouns with type-5 suffixes could modify another noun in
>> that sense. And as ghunchu'wI' points out, it could easily be confused as
>> modifying the verb qIH instead of the noun lengwI'. tIQ is a very useful
>> word here, though, and I had forgotten it exists, so thanks!
>> 
>>> 
>>>> Nothing beside remains. Round the decay Of that colossal wreck,
>>>> boundless and bare The lone and level sands stretch far away.
>>>> 
>>>> ratlh pagh latlh. raghpu'bogh pIgh'a'vetlh Dechbogh yoS'a'Daq,
>>>> chImchu' veH Hutlhbogh Deb'e'.
>>> 
>>> Using {tIQ} allows you a bit of word play with {tIq} "be long, be lengthy"
>> at the very end, e.g.
>>> 
>>>  tIqtaH chImbogh 'ej mobbogh Deb'e'
>>> 
>>>  tIqtaH chImbogh mobbogh je Deb'e'
>> 
>> Can tIq also apply to wide open areas? tIq Deb suggests to me sort of a
>> long, skinny desert, rather than a desert which goes into the distance for a
>> very long way. I wanted to make sure to convey the latter idea, which I why
>> I used veH Hutlhbogh Deb'e' ("boundless desert").
>> 
>> Also, is it necessary to mark Deb with -'e' when there's no other noun in
>> the phrase? I thought using -'e' in relative clauses was used when there
>> could be confusion about whether the subject or object is the head noun.
>> 
>>> The second version is modeled on the Anthem:
>>> 
>>>  yoHbogh matlhbogh je SuvwI' Say'moHchu' may' 'Iw
>>>  The blood of battle washes clean the warrior brave and true.
>>> (Anthem)
>>> 
>>>> And I'm not sure nongmoHwI' ("that which causes one to be
>>>> passionate") is really the best translation for "passion", though
>>>> there's not a lot of vocabulary for emotions yet.
>>> 
>>> The only example of {nong} also comes from the Anthem:
>>> 
>>>  maSuv manong 'ej maHoHchu'
>>>  We fight, we love, and then we kill. (Anthem)
>>> 
>>> Another "emotional" verb is {DuQ} "touch (emotionally)".  The only nouns I
>> can think of are {parmaq} "love, romance" and {bang} "love, one who is
>> loved, beloved one" which are clearly inappropriate here.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> --
>>> Voragh
>>> Ca'Non Master of the Klingons
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
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>>> Tlhingan-hol at kli.org
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>> 
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