[Tlhingan-hol] 'ar again

[David Trimboli]

On 1/31/2013 11:29 AM, Rohan Fenwick - QeS 'utlh wrote:
> jatlh SuStel:
>  > I don't think {'ar} ever means "what portion?". With countable nouns it
>  > means "how many?", and with non-countable nouns it means "what amount?".
>
> vIjang jIH, jIjatlh:
>  > I know of absolutely no evidence to support a grammatical distinction
>  > between countable and non-countable nouns in Klingon.
>
> jang SuStel, jatlh:
>  > It's not a distinction in Klingon; it's a distinction in the English
>  > translation. How {'ar} is translated depends on context, but it's
>  > always  {'ar} no matter what the translation.
>
> yaj.
>
> taH SuStel:
>  > bIQ 'ar
>  > how much water?
>  > (unless you're talking about water served in cups, in which case the
>  > translation would be "how many waters?", but the distinction is an
>  > English one, not a Klingon one)
>
> jIH:
>  > So if it works in this direction (a -count noun is treatable as +count
>  > noun), why do you contend it doesn't work in the other direction?
>
> SuStel:
>  > I don't. I contend that {'ar} either counts the number of things that
>  > are countable, or the quantity—not portion—of things that are not.
>
> So for you, is {nIn Hoch natlhlu'pu'} - which specifies a portion, and
> not a number - not an acceptable answer to the question {nIn 'ar
> natlhlu'pu'}?

It *is* an acceptable answer, because it specifies "how much fuel"; it 
tells us the amount of fuel. An actual number is not necessary; the 
quantity is simply stated in a custom measurement: the amount of fuel we 
started with.

Likewise, an appropriate answer to {chab 'ar DaSop} could be {chab Hoch 
vISop}, not because I was asked "how much of the pie?" but because the 
answer to "how much pie?" is "all of the pie under consideration."

The point is that {'ar} doesn't mean "what portion of one thing?" except 
in cases where you're only talking about one thing, in which case it 
only means "what portion?" in that the best answer is probably going to 
be a measurement in terms of a portion. If I am in a pie factory, the 
answer is probably best answered in terms of whole pies; if I'm at 
dinner with one pie as dessert, the answer is probably best answered in 
terms of portions of that one pie. But in no case should {chab 
laSvarghDaq jIHtaH} {chab 'ar DaSop?} be interpreted as "how much of a 
pie did you eat?"

-- 
SuStel
http://www.trimboli.name/