[Tlhingan-hol] 'ar again

[David Trimboli]

On 1/30/2013 11:59 PM, Rohan Fenwick - QeS 'utlh wrote:

> jang je SuStel, jatlh:
>  > I don't think {'ar} ever means "what portion?". With countable nouns it
>  > means "how many?", and with non-countable nouns it means "what amount?".
>
> I know of absolutely no evidence to support a grammatical distinction
> between countable and non-countable nouns in Klingon.

It's not a distinction in Klingon; it's a distinction in the English 
translation. How {'ar} is translated depends on context, but it's always 
{'ar} no matter what the translation.

> (poD vay')
>
> taH:
>  > bIQ 'ar
>  > how much water?
>  > (unless you're talking about water served in cups, in which case the
>  > translation would be "how many waters?", but the distinction is an
>  > English one, not a Klingon one)
>
> So if it works in this direction (a -count noun is treatable as +count
> noun), why do you contend it doesn't work in the other direction?

I don't. I contend that {'ar} either counts the number of things that 
are countable, or the quantity—not portion—of things that are not.

>  > Since {Hol} is a countable noun, the correct translation would be
>  >
>  > Hol 'ar
>  > how many languages?
>  >
>  > The translation would not be "how much of a particular language?",
>  > though I could see a metaphorical "sea of language" {Hol bIQ'a'} leading
>  > to the phrase {Hol 'ar} "how much (of the sea of) language?".
>
> This argument fails for me in that it imposes the English +/-count
> distinction onto Klingon where no evidence for such a distinction
> exists. I don't understand why a Hol bIQ'a' should be treated any
> differently from a Hol alone,

Now that I've stated clearly that the Klingon does NOT make this 
distinction, do you see how {Hol 'ar} and {Hol bIQ'a' 'ar} are 
grammatically the same?

> and I'd contend that {Hol 'ar Dajatlh} can
> mean either "how many languages do you speak?" or "how much of the
> language(s) do you speak?",

Let me turn the must-show-evidence argument back at you. I see 
absolutely no evidence that {'ar} means "how much of <something>?" The 
translation is "how much?", not "how much of?" Can you point to any such 
evidence?

In English, "how much?" is asking to quantify a non-countable noun. How 
much air? How much happiness? How much money? It seems quite clear to me 
that {'ar} is asking to give a quantity to a noun, not a percentage.

Hol 'ar
how much language?
(not "how much of the language?")

> although of course context dictates that
> usually the first meaning will be the most appropriate. The following
> exchange (which is a little contrived, but I don't think especially so)
> is fine for me:
>
> A: 'anDorya' Hol DaSov'a'?
> B: HIja', vIjatlhchu'.
> A: loQ Holvetlh vIjatlh je jIH.
> B: Holvetlh 'ar Dajatlh?
> A: 'op mu'mey neH. pab vIyajchu'be'.

I see that as nonsensical. (First of all, A already told B how much 
Andorian he spoke.) {Holvetlh 'ar} isn't "how much of that language?", 
it's "how much that language?", with all the wrongness of the English.

> To use another countable example, what about {chab 'ar DaSop}? Would you
> deny that "How much (of the) pie did you eat?" and "How many pies did
> you eat?" are equally valid renditions?

Yes, I deny it. {chab 'ar DaSop} means "how many pies did you eat?" and 
"how much pie did you eat?" The "of the" does not belong.

The answer could could be {wej chab vISop} "I ate three pies," or it 
could be {wa' cheb ngI'bogh chab vISop} "I ate one *cheb* of pie, I ate 
pie weighing one *cheb*."

-- 
SuStel
http://www.trimboli.name/