[Tlhingan-hol] nuq bop bom: 'ay' wa'vatlh wejmaH wej: <qama' mIwmey>

[Lieven Litaer]

After re-reading this my own message, I am still not clearly convinced 
about what I wrote myself. Maybe somebody else does understand it, or 
can explain it better. This could just help the discussion.

I see the problem here, and it's difficult to explain, nor do I find the 
right words. It's surely something with this "causing" and also 
"direct/indirect object" which I do understand, but cannot explain.

In english it also works that way:

The velwI' covers the floor.
He covers the floor with the carpet.
The carpet on the floor is covering it.

I see two meanings in this word:
a) what a person does when laying a carpet
     (a moving action, cover the floor)

b) what the carpet/blanket does on a floor/table
     (a static situation, cover the floor)

Only context will show what is meant.

>> From Marc's email it's clear that the carpet {vel}s the floor.
Correct.

> *causes* the carpet to {vel} the floor, can they not be said to {velmoH} the
> carpet to the floor, using an ordinary causative?

I agree with that, grammatically.
But I prefer to stick to the example we have. I don't know what MO's 
intention was, but why would he write this the way he did it?
 >>>>>>
To say "lay a carpet," one says "use a carpet to cover the floor," or 
{rav velmeH tlhIm lo'}.
<<<<<<

> Harry Potter magically causing the carpet to cover the floor isn't different
> to making the carpet cover the floor in an ordinary mundane way. They're just
> two different means of achieving the same action, aren't they?

Grmbl...mh..yes, bad example, ignore it ;-)

>> mInDu'lIj vIvel jIH. bIH vIvelmeH ghopwIj vIlo'.
>
> Given the example of {rav vel tlhIm}, I'd have thought {bIH velmeH} "in order
> that they [my hands] cover them" would be better.

I see your point, but it is "I" who am covering it, using my hands; 
adapting the right prefixes on the example:
{rav   velmeH tlhIm   lo'}
{rav vIvelmeH tlhIm vIlo'}

But we are probably both right, since it is also my hands which are 
covering the eyes, it depends on which kind of cover you think.

Lieven.