[Tlhingan-hol] On the word {tlho'} and its kin

[Qov]

Thank you. I've been thinking a lot about this because I've been 
working with thanks and apology in my story lately. Here we have a 
language with the words tlho' and tlhIj but a culture where you don't 
say these things. I've tried to contrast the non-Klingon aliens in 
one part of the story with the Klingons in the other part.

In over 50,000 words my uses of tlho' by or about Klingons are only these:

jIyIntaHmo' 'oy'vetlh vItlho'.  = could almost have been 'oy'vetlhmo' jIQuch

matlh 'Ipba'ta' DeghwI' 'ach DaH 'Ip tlho'laH HoD. = similar to 
'oHmo' Do', but luck didn't really enter into it.

"ghIrel Dutlho'bejjaj yo' qIj." = There should have been a comma 
there. "May the Black Fleet most decidedly thank you, ghIrel." This 
doesn't specify what form the thanks should take. He could well mean, 
"They'd better give you a fine ship to captain."

A crew who is rescued owes their lives to three different parties for 
the rescue. I'm writing a scene now where they beam down for the 
purpose of what in English would be to thank the person who 
recognized their distress call for what it was and passed it on to 
the proper authorities.  Humans would say "thank you" maybe bring her 
a case of beer (ok that's Canadians). I have a member of the Klingon 
crew say "We have to honour her" and I think I have worked out what 
will happen in this scene, and it turns out to be mean more to the 
recipient of their thanks than they know, but they will never say 
words resembling <pItlho'>.

In person when humans are speaking Klingon and feel a need to express 
thanks we often say "choquvmoH."  That expression for me predates the 
word tlho', so seems more genuine Klingon anyway. (I learned Klingon 
from the first edition TKD, so everything since has been a mu' chu' 
for me!  The way my mother considers the Original Six to be the only 
real NHL teams.) I try to avoid overuse of that, so it doesn't just 
become the Klingon for thank you. As I check, about half the 
instances of me using quvmoH are actual descriptions of someone 
actions honouring their family/ship and the other half are someone 
shining someone's nose.

Here's something I recently wrote that shows I support your idea of 
gratitude as a kind of charge that accumulates. A Klingon has 
received an unexpected gift from someone. He didn't say thank you for 
the gift, and the gift was an unstated thank you for something he had 
done for a friend of the donor.

motlh tlho'chuqbe'mo' tlhInganpu', vI'law'taH tlho'nISghachchaj; chaq 
SomDaq vI'taHbogh tatmey rur. Som wewmoH 'ej tlhInganpu' vuvqu'chuqmoH.

I agree with you that Klingon thanks should be action not a word that 
takes the place of any real expression of gratitude.

I've left out numerous instances of non-Klingons saying thank you, 
and a search for tlhIj was almost hilarious in the amount of 
apologizing my non-Klingons do.

I decided to have a Klingon scientist explicitly say <jItlhIj> but 
she was speaking to an alien, and she was experienced with alien 
cultures, and understood the concept of alien word-rituals different 
from replacement proverbs.  She isn't, however, comfortable with the 
concept of abasement as part of the ritual of apology. And what do 
Klingons with no knowledge of alien cultures do with that word, tlhIj?

Perhaps this. In one scene a Klingon offers a replacement proverb for 
poor behaviour and in assessing his attitude towards her, the other 
Klingon thinks, <SIbI' tlhIjta'>. I'm not sure if that's right. Does 
<qa'meH vIttlhegh ja'ta'> mean roughly the same thing as <tlhIjta'> 
to a Klingon? I've used tlhIj twice as though it did.

A crewmember says: "HoD, ghu'vam vIqaSmoHta'mo' jItlhIj." He's 
deliberately precipitated an uncomfortable situation. He's not sorry. 
It doesn't constitute a loss of honour, in fact he's done it to 
preserve people's honour. He's not looking for forgiveness. He just 
wants to acknowledge that he knows he brought this upon them and that 
the captain may not be at this moment entirely happy about the situation.

For me QoS is a word to express sympathy, or sometimes regret, never apology.

Maybe I'll start putting more footnotes about these decisions I'm 
making, because I really like this kind of discussion. You see 
anything that doesn't seem Klingon or seems an odd choice in my 
story, please pull it out so we can debate it and all get better.

- Qov

At 02:57 02/01/2012, you wrote:
>I've been thinking: We humans are all very used to expressing our 
>emotions through words. If we are grateful, we say "Thank you!". If 
>we are sorry, we say "I'm sorry."
>Words are so powerful that we are sometimes afraid to utter them, or 
>worry what will happen if we don't. Case in point: "I love you."
>Indeed, words are so valuable to us that they can be claimed in 
>penance: You can demand an apology of somebody, and a court can even 
>sentence you to make a public apology.
>
>Klingons have their own ritual words, for example in the case of 
>qa'meH vIttlheghmey and peghmey vIttlheghmey.
>In general, though, Klingons are known to be more action-oriented. 
>Indeed, the last time I checked my copy of TKW, the proverb 
>{bI'IQchugh, yab Qel yISuch.} wasn't in there, and in PK, Worf 
>explicitly states that Klingons don't say "Excuse me" or "Thank 
>you". {nughpu' pIm, tIghmey pIm.}
>Indeed, MO has stated many times that Klingons don't say {qatlho'}, 
>and I guess we shouldn't be surprised. After all, what function does 
>this word actually serve? If you really NEED to state satisfaction 
>explicitly, there's already the word {maj}, not to mention verbs 
>such as {Quch} and {bel}.
>I've been thinking, therefore: What if the word {tlho'} refers to 
>something more than just uttering a ritualized set of words? What if 
>it actually refers to repaying somebody's honorable actions, not 
>because it is demanded of one but because one feels gratitude towards them?
>
>When somebody does something towards you that merit gratitude, you 
>might ask {chay' qatlho'laH} ("How can I thank you?") or 
>{qatlho'nIS}** ("I must thank you"). If one DID say simply 
>{qatlho'}, it would be to say "I will do something to thank you"; it 
>would be a promise of an act to come, not the act itself.
>One might also say something like {ghaH vItlho'meH ghaHvaD targhwIj 
>nIvqu' vInob}; "I shall give him my finest targ as thanks".
>{DutoDbogh tera'nganvaD qagh Danobchugh, Datlho'Ha'.} - "Giving a 
>Terran gagh is a poor way of thanking her for saving your life."
>{tlho'meH targh} - "thank you targ" ('cuz thank you cards are for weaklings)
>
>...or perhaps {tlho'} really DOES refer to being in a grateful 
>state, in which case one might imagine it being used in such 
>sentences as {vavlI' vItlho'mo' ghojwI'wI' Damoj 'e' vIlaj.} ("I 
>accept you as my pupil because I owe a debt of gratitude to your 
>father.") or {bItlho'chugh yIvang!} ("If you are grateful, act!"). 
>The phrase {qatlho'} would then be interpreted as "I am grateful 
>towards you", with the implication that one intends to repay the 
>addressee; again, it is a promise of an act to come, not the act itself.
>In this case, {tlho'Ha'} would not mean "to thank somebody badly", 
>and perhaps it wouldn't even mean "to be ungrateful" in the way that 
>we understand it, but rather "to be possessed of misplaced 
>gratitude", or perhaps "to have repaid one's debt of gratitude".
>{ghaH vItlho'Ha'choHmeH ghaHvaD targhwIj nIvqu' vInob.} - "In order 
>to become ungrateful towards her, I shall give her my finest targ."
>{*je'raD* tuq tlho'Ha'mo' tlhIngan yejquv woQ'a' 'oHtaH DuraS 
>tuq'e'.} - "Because the Klingon High Council has a misplaced sense 
>of gratitude towards Ja'rod, it remains a political powerhouse."
>{mutoDDI' vItlho'choH 'ej vItoDDI' vItlho'Ha'choH.} - "I became 
>grateful towards him when he saved my life, and became ungrateful 
>when I saved his.")
>{mutoDDI' vItlho'choH 'ach vavwI' chotDI' vItlho'Ha'.} - "I became 
>grateful towards her when she saved my life, but lost my gratitude 
>when she murdered my father.}
>{vay' DaSeHchu'meH SoHvaD Datlho'nISmoH.} - "To truly control 
>somebody, make them grateful towards you.}
>{vay' vItlho'lI'chugh reH jIbelHa'.} - "I can never be satisfied as 
>long as I have an unpaid debt of gratitude."
>{reH tlho'taH qoH neH.} - "Only fools are possessed with undying gratitude."
>
>One might also imagine the NOUN {tlho'} taking on a somewhat 
>different role from its English counterparts. While "gratitude" is a 
>feeling that normally persists even after the feeling of debt has 
>subsided, and is often regarded as a positive feeling, perhaps 
>{tlho'} is more of a need which subsides once it has been satisfied.
>{may'Daq mutoDDI' muDuQ tlho''a' 'a ngugh wa'ben latlh may'Daq ghaH 
>vItoD. vaj vItlho' rIntaH.} - "I was struck with great gratitude 
>when he/sje saved me in battle, but one year hence I saved him/her 
>in another battle. Thus, my gratitude towards him/her is complete."
>
>What do y'all think? How should the word {tlho'}? What of other 
>words - such as {Hoy'} ("to congratulate"), {QoS} ("to be sorry") 
>and {tlhIj} ("to apologize") - which Terrans have evolved rituals around?
>
>**...to which one might respond {chotlho' net poQbe'} or {chotlho' 
>'e' vIpoQbe'}, but not {chotlho'nISbe'}. If I understand it 
>correctly, -nIS refers to a need on the part of the subject, not one 
>imposed by others.
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