[Tlhingan-hol] nuq bop bom: 'ay' wa'vatlh wejmaH vagh: <potlh QonoS>

[David Trimboli]

On 2/10/2012 4:18 PM, ghunchu'wI' 'utlh wrote:
>
> On Fri, Feb 10, 2012 at 3:40 PM, Qov<robyn at flyingstart.ca>  wrote:
>>> If {-taH} here is intended to describe a continual or habitual action
>>> rather than a continuous one, I think it's better left off.
>>
>> If SuStel is reading I'd be interested in his take on this, wrt to his
>> "every verb needs an aspect suffix" idea.
>
> I don't intend to put words in his mouth, but what I understand of his
> position is that verbs lacking a type 7 suffix are best understood as
> describing situations rather than events or processes. However, the
> distinction he makes between "perfective" and "perfected" is one I do
> not understand completely, nor do I see it as important to my use of
> the language.

I haven't been reading, but I saw my name...

TKD says that a lack of type 7 suffix means that the action is not one 
of the things that type 7 suffixes describe. It doesn't mean that you 
just didn't mention something—if the suffix is true, it's *required*. I 
can't use {jIQong} to say "I was asleep" because this idea includes a 
continuous aspect. It must be {jIQongtaH}.

Klingon also has a *perfective* aspect. Perfective is where you view an 
action as a completed whole. {jIQongpu'} "I slept: I went to sleep, 
slept for a while, then woke up."

What Klingon does NOT have is a built-in *perfect* tense/aspect. Perfect 
"tense" indicates that something is currently in a state or condition 
that resulted from an action in the past. "I have eaten" means that I'm 
full now because I ate earlier. This is different from "I ate," which is 
perfective and means "I finished off a meal" (you wouldn't say "I ate" 
if you just took one bite of an apple).

So if you say {jIQongpu'}, it doesn't mean that at some time prior to 
now I experienced sleep; it means that, without regard to whether it was 
in the past, present, or future, I experienced a complete session of 
sleep, all the way to waking up. Sleeping was performed and finished. If 
you want to say "I have slept" (i.e., prior sleep means I'm not tired 
now) in Klingon, you can approximate it with perfective and a time 
context: {wa' rep ret jIQongpu'} "One hour ago I experienced a complete 
session of sleep."

Verbs without a type 7 suffix therefore indicate a *propensity* to do 
something. {Hoch jaj jIQong} "I sleep every day"; {qagh Sopbe'} "He 
doesn't (ever) eat gagh." You might do it habitually, like {reH jIbom} 
"I always sing," or occasionally {rut 'awje' vItlhutlh} "I sometimes 
drink root beer," or it might be your regular condition {jIHoS} "I am 
strong."

jIQuch - I am a happy kind of person
jIQuchtaH - I am happy right now
jIQuchpu' - I experienced a period of happiness that ended

To recap:

Traditional grammarian wisdom says that the type 7 suffixes indicate 
soemthing that happened prior to the time context, but that's "perfect 
tense," and TKD names, describes, and illustrates "perfective aspect," 
which is a completed event viewed as a whole without any regard to the 
time in which it occurs. The grammarians have been wrong for a long time.

Traditional wisdom also allows verbs to go without type 7 suffixes at 
all and still mean things that are continuous or perfective—that they're 
just not expressed. However, TKD states that verbs without type 7 
suffixes refer to events that are non-continuous and non-perfective. 
That means they are verbs that indicate propensity only.

 >> yo' 'aj SuchtaH Sutmey tuQbe'bogh nga'chuqqangqu'law'wI'vam'e'[113].
 >
 > If {-taH} here is intended to describe a continual or habitual action
 > rather than a continuous one, I think it's better left off.

I think it *must* be left off if that is the case. If you mean 
"regularly visit" or "occasionally visit" or "always visit," leave off 
{-taH} and use an adverbial. If you mean "is visiting for a while," use 
{-taH}. If you mean "is visiting until done visiting," use {-lI'}.

-- 
SuStel
http://www.trimboli.name/