[Tlhingan-hol] Bad Klingon in Trek novels (and the like)

Fri Aug 10 15:31:45 PDT 2012

Heads-up warning: This is a bit of a rant e-mail, and most of it is probably more than a bit whiny. However, I think it's relevant to the discussion, and I feel the need to get it off my chest:

------------

I've just had a very unpleasant conversation on Twitter over the Klingon bible. I know obsessing over people being wrong on the internet is usually futile, but sometimes I just can't help myself.

I noticed that somebody had posted the question: "True or false? The Bible has been translate dinto Klingon."
So, seeing as he had asked, and since I knew the answer, I replied "False: There's an ungrammatical machine translation, but only parts have been properly translated. http://klv.mrklingon.org"

I see this claim very often, and I sometimes point out that it's false (because my reasoning is that when you make that claim, it indicates at least some interest in its truth value). Sometimes people appreciate that, and that's nice, and sometimes they ignore me, and that's fine.

This instance would have been simple enough, but then the guy replied "It's true..."

I wasn't sure what he was saying was true (the original postulate, or my negation thereof), but I checked his profile and noticed he was telling everybody who'd responded that the correct answer was "True".

This struck a nerve with me; I don't usually mind people being wrong (and if it's clear they're not interested, I usually don't bother correcting them), but when they defend their errors and pass them on to others ... I get frustrated.

So I responded "ghobe'. teHbe'. {No. It's false.}", to indicate I knew what I was talking about.
I then added "To clarify: The Klingon Language Institute used to have a project to translate the Bible, but only a few passages were done."

To which he responded "Seriously, I'm now losing the will to live.. it was true!"

...and that's where I made the mistake of responding "Nope; it was and remains false.", and it really went south from there, ending with him repeatedly calling me an arse and blocking me.

You can see the full fall-out hee, if you're interested:
http://people.kth.se/~felixm/KlingonBible2.png

So, why am I posting this? Three main reasons:

1) I felt the need to vent. (Sorry!)
2) To ask the question: When is it worth pointing out misunderstandings about Klingon? Taking this conversation as an example, is there somewhere you feel I should have simply backed off?

...and 3) To ask the more personal question: WAS I being an arse?
That's not a rhetorical question; the guy I was talking to seems intelligent enough, and I'd really like to know what it is I did to invite such a harsh reaction from him. So, if you look at the conversation and notice somewhere where you think I was being uncivil, feel free to let me know (either on or off the list).

________________________________________
From: Felix Malmenbeck [felixm at kth.se]
Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2012 10:25
To: Michael Roney, Jr. PKT; tlhIngan Hol mailing list
Subject: Re: [Tlhingan-hol] Bad Klingon in Trek novels (and the like)

Regarding the UTA and KLV Bible:

I can definitely see why people would be frustrated by the errors that arise because of this. However, I do think it should be noted that Joel appears to have done his very best to make sure the language isn't misrepresented; turns out it's not always enough, but he has written fairly extensively on the subject.

I also wonder: Are these misunderstandings inescapable, or could one perhaps send an e-mail to the creator with some suggested changes that would help avert them?
(Like "When the 'translated' text shows up, also show a big text saying: 'WARNING: This is NOT an accurate translation! For details, click [LINK]." or "On Amazon, perhaps you can put the stuff about the KLV being inaccurate at the beginning of the info text.")

In that case, and if it has not already been done, then it's an option that really needs to be explored before we bring out the harsh language.

> I'd like to applaud the efforts of Keith R. A. DeCandido for his
> excellent use of the language.
> (And for naming a ship after my daughter!)
> He has certainly taken the time to understand what he's doing.

Yeah, he's great in that way; he really incorporates the language quite seamlessly into his books. [If I were a Trek author, I fear I'd spend more pages on background info than story.]

He's also very responsive on Twitter (@KRADeC); I've asked him several times about the lore in his Klingon novels, and he's been happy to oblige.

It does seem he has a very real fondness for his Klingon stories; you can listen to him talking about them in a recent podcast here: http://kradical.livejournal.com/2573796.html

________________________________________
From: Michael Roney, Jr. PKT [nahqun at gmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, August 07, 2012 07:55
To: tlhIngan Hol mailing list
Subject: Re: [Tlhingan-hol] Bad Klingon in Trek novels (and the like)

In response to Trek authors using Klingon:

I'd like to applaud the efforts of Keith R. A. DeCandido for his
excellent use of the language.
(And for naming a ship after my daughter!)
He has certainly taken the time to understand what he's doing.

That said, one of his books refers to {QongDaqpu'}.
Which reminded me of a scene in The Final Reflection where a kuve
contorts her body into a chair/bean bag to be sat upon.
(It's been a while, so forgive my memory.)

While it would certainly make for an interesting story to have one's
bed be a sentient life form; that's not what his intent was.
(I know, I e-mailed him about it.)

However, Michael A. Martin's use of the language was grating.
He used the words correctly enough; but he went out of his way to
explain them in English as well.

It's like watching a program for a pre-schooler where the host says a
phrase in Spanish, to someone who only speaks Spanish, and then
translates it into English for them.

I understood you the first time!

In response to MrKlingon

I have no problem with Joel, the person.

A while back, it came to his attention that I was compiling all of the
scraps of Klingon Bible translations from around the web.

He PM'd be to see if I had used any of his.

I'd rather eat dead qagh.

He understood, and said that he would've been surprised if I had been .

And there's supposed to be a link to a Human translator on his site,
but it seems to be broken.

~'anan naHQun

--
~Michael Roney, Jr.
Professional Klingon Translator
webOS Developer

http://www.twitter.com/roneyii
http://www.google.com/s2/profiles/110546798564536163288

_______________________________________________
Tlhingan-hol mailing list
Tlhingan-hol at stodi.digitalkingdom.org
http://stodi.digitalkingdom.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol

_______________________________________________
Tlhingan-hol mailing list
Tlhingan-hol at stodi.digitalkingdom.org
http://stodi.digitalkingdom.org/mailman/listinfo/tlhingan-hol