[Tlhingan-hol] nuq bop bom: 'ay' javmaH Soch: <voqHa'chuqghach>

[Qov]

At 12:17 28/10/2011, David Trimboli wrote:
>On 10/28/2011 2:27 PM, Robyn Stewart wrote:
>>
>>At 10:53 28/10/2011, David Trimboli wrote:
>>>On 10/28/2011 1:19 PM, Qov wrote:
>>>
>>>>2. ghunchu'wI' started discussion on the thing that I found.
>>>>On Fri, Oct 28, 2011 at 10:58 AM, Qov <robyn at flyingstart.ca> wrote:
>>>>> > jatlh "qavoqbe' bIjatlh."[38]
>>>>> > ...
>>>>> > [38] Ok this is a way more interesting question than the one about
>>>>>whether I
>>>>> > should use the word jatlh or ja' every time I use quotation marks. I
>>>>>want to
>>>>> > see how you react to this, then I will tell you what I am thinking
>>>>>about it.
>>>>>
>>>>>Hey, that's neat. I didn't think anything of it when I read it,
>>>>>besides quietly noting that it was properly formed as reported speech
>>>>>according to TKD. Now that you point it out as something worth
>>>>>focusing on, I realize that what she actually had said was {vIvoqbe'}.
>>>>>
>>>>>It works. I'm willing to consider it the moral equivalent of
>>>>>tense-mangling in English reported speech: "You said you were bringing
>>>>>donuts next week." If you think too hard, it seems broken, but it's
>>>>>the right way to do it.
>>>>
>>>>As ghunchu'wI' pointed out, what 'eSSIm said was vIvoqbe' - I don't
>>>>trust him . What Mahoun would say in English would be "You said you
>>>>don't trust me." Outside the context of this story, if I asked you how
>>>>to say "You said you trust me," in Klingon, everyone would say <bIjatlh
>>>>qavoq> (or <qavoq bIjatlh>). So does the fact that the context made her
>>>>actual word be vIvoq mean that bIjatlh qavoq is not correct here? I
>>>>think bIjatlh qavoq means "you said you trust me" regardless of whether
>>>>the actual words spoken were, "QIpbogh novvetlh SuD vIvoq," "DaHjaj
>>>>qavoqchoH," "I trust you" or even "Hovmey Davan." For example in an
>>>>earlier draft the next line was "SaH Duj bIjatlhDI'." I don't think
>>>>Mahoun ever said the wards "SaH Duj" but he said other words that avered
>>>>the existence of a ship, and no one would protest that <SaH Duj
>>>>bIjatlhDI'> is not the way to say when you said there was a ship would
>>>>they? I think a Klingon can say "You said there was a ship," without
>>>>saying <bIjatlh INSERT_EXACT_QUOTATION_HERE.>
>>>>
>>>>This is the difference between quoted speech and reported speech that I
>>>>was getting at in the earlier discussion about whether my use of
>>>>quotation marks instead of attributed speech tags was acceptable. (For
>>>>the record, and I'm sure the proponents of always using them have
>>>>noticed, I've started using them almost always. I still feel that
>>>>there's a difference when a character is saying "Person X said this" as
>>>>opposed to when *I* am saying it. But the more I thought about it the
>>>>more I wanted to use ja' and jatlh each time.)
>>>
>>>At the beginning of Power Klingon, we have:
>>>
>>>tlhIngan: nuqneH?
>>>Human: 'IH jaj, qar'a'?
>>>tlhIngan: jISaHbe'.
>>>Human: bISaHbe' qatlh bIjatlh?
>>>
>>>So your position may be supported. As far as we know, the Human is
>>>speaking grammatical Klingon, albeit inappropriately.
>>
>>What the Human said doesn't support my position. I think the human
>>should have said, "jISaHbe' qatlh bIjatlh." The position I have taken is
>>that to report what someone said, it is acceptable to paraphrase what
>>they said, if necessary changing the addressee for clarity, but
>>retaining the words as ones that the person being reported could have
>>said in the situation being reported on, i.e. with the correct prefix
>>direction for them.
>>
>>To me, "bISaHbe' qatlh bIjatlh" means "Why did you say I don't care?"
>>This example seems to contradict my understanding that you should not
>>reverse the direction of the prefixes in reported speech.
>>
>>Is p.67 of TKD, the exchange in PK and that newsgroup example the sum
>>total of our knowledge of reported speech and quotations? Both the
>>latter instances are reporting a first person singular no object speech
>>act. They seem to directly contradict one another.
>>
>>tlhIngan jIH bIjatlh - speech reported exactly as the person said it
>>bISaHbe' bIjatlh - prefix changed to match the observer's perspective.
>>
>>I would prefer to resolve the contradiction by assuming the Human made
>>an error by formulating the reported speech in the manner of Federation
>>Standard and not in the Klingon way.
>>
>>>But Okrand also gave a counter-example in the old MSN newsgroup, which
>>>he describes as "giving a direct quotation":
>>>
>>>tlhIngan jIH bIjatlh "you say, 'I am a Klingon'"
>>>
>>>Nowhere has Okrand ever explained that Klingons use reported speech
>>>instead of direct quotations.
>>
>>When he translates HIqaghQo' qaja'pu' as "I told you not to interrupt
>>me" he is demonstrating reported speech. If he weren't, the translation
>>would have been the literal meaning he gives below. In other words
>>Okrand hasn't explained that Klingons use reported speech instead of
>>direct quotations, but he has demonstrated that they use what look like
>>direct quotations in reported speech.
>>
>>How do you think Mahoun should say, "You said you don't trust me," in
>>this context? <vIvoqbe' bIjatlh>? How should he said it if her exact
>>words were. "luvoq latlhpu' 'a jIQoch" or "Davoqbe'nIS 'e' chupmo'
>>jupwI' vuDDaj vIlajta'."?
>
>Ah, I see. You're saying that direct quotation 
>need not be a perfect reproduction—it's enough 
>to use words the speaker *might* have said if 
>they were to say it in a form convenient for the 
>current speaker. I agree with this. You're not 
>citing an encyclopedia, you're talking.

Yes, that's one of the things I am saying. The 
other is more specific and probably more 
controversial. There may not have been enough of 
it quoted to make the point clear so I'll describe it again.

'eSSIm is speaking to someone else while Mahoun is present.

The other person asks her about Mahoun.
jatlh <wIvoqlaH'a'?>
jatlh 'eSSIm, <vIvoqbe'>.

Later: <qavoqbe' bIjatlh> jatlh Mahoun

Devoid of context anyone would translate jatlh 
Mahoun <qavoqbe' bIjatlh>. as: Mahoun said, "You 
said you don't trust me".  (or something similar with different verb tenses)

So my conjecture is that it is alright for Mahoun 
to say <qavoqbe' bIjatlh> even though that 
requires changing the direction of her speech, 
something different than mere paraphrasing.

- Qov