[Tlhingan-hol] nuq bop bom: 'ay' javmaH Soch: <voqHa'chuqghach>

[Robyn Stewart]

At 10:53 28/10/2011, David Trimboli wrote:
>On 10/28/2011 1:19 PM, Qov wrote:
>
>>2. ghunchu'wI' started discussion on the thing that I found.
>>On Fri, Oct 28, 2011 at 10:58 AM, Qov <robyn at flyingstart.ca> wrote:
>>> > jatlh "qavoqbe' bIjatlh."[38]
>>> > ...
>>> > [38] Ok this is a way more interesting question than the one about
>>>whether I
>>> > should use the word jatlh or ja' every time I use quotation marks. I
>>>want to
>>> > see how you react to this, then I will tell you what I am thinking
>>>about it.
>>>
>>>Hey, that's neat. I didn't think anything of it when I read it,
>>>besides quietly noting that it was properly formed as reported speech
>>>according to TKD. Now that you point it out as something worth
>>>focusing on, I realize that what she actually had said was {vIvoqbe'}.
>>>
>>>It works. I'm willing to consider it the moral equivalent of
>>>tense-mangling in English reported speech: "You said you were bringing
>>>donuts next week." If you think too hard, it seems broken, but it's
>>>the right way to do it.
>>
>>As ghunchu'wI' pointed out, what 'eSSIm said was vIvoqbe' - I don't
>>trust him . What Mahoun would say in English would be "You said you
>>don't trust me." Outside the context of this story, if I asked you how
>>to say "You said you trust me," in Klingon, everyone would say <bIjatlh
>>qavoq> (or <qavoq bIjatlh>). So does the fact that the context made her
>>actual word be vIvoq mean that bIjatlh qavoq is not correct here? I
>>think bIjatlh qavoq means "you said you trust me" regardless of whether
>>the actual words spoken were, "QIpbogh novvetlh SuD vIvoq," "DaHjaj
>>qavoqchoH," "I trust you" or even "Hovmey Davan." For example in an
>>earlier draft the next line was "SaH Duj bIjatlhDI'." I don't think
>>Mahoun ever said the wards "SaH Duj" but he said other words that avered
>>the existence of a ship, and no one would protest that <SaH Duj
>>bIjatlhDI'> is not the way to say when you said there was a ship would
>>they? I think a Klingon can say "You said there was a ship," without
>>saying <bIjatlh INSERT_EXACT_QUOTATION_HERE.>
>>
>>This is the difference between quoted speech and reported speech that I
>>was getting at in the earlier discussion about whether my use of
>>quotation marks instead of attributed speech tags was acceptable. (For
>>the record, and I'm sure the proponents of always using them have
>>noticed, I've started using them almost always. I still feel that
>>there's a difference when a character is saying "Person X said this" as
>>opposed to when *I* am saying it. But the more I thought about it the
>>more I wanted to use ja' and jatlh each time.)
>
>At the beginning of Power Klingon, we have:
>
>tlhIngan: nuqneH?
>Human: 'IH jaj, qar'a'?
>tlhIngan: jISaHbe'.
>Human: bISaHbe' qatlh bIjatlh?
>
>So your position may be supported. As far as we know, the Human is 
>speaking grammatical Klingon, albeit inappropriately.

What the Human said doesn't support my position. I think the human 
should have said, "jISaHbe' qatlh bIjatlh."  The position I have 
taken is that to report what someone said, it is acceptable to 
paraphrase what they said, if necessary changing the addressee for 
clarity, but retaining the words as ones that the person being 
reported could have said in the situation being reported on, i.e. 
with the correct prefix direction for them.

To me, "bISaHbe' qatlh bIjatlh" means "Why did you say I don't care?" 
This example seems to contradict my understanding that you should not 
reverse the direction of the prefixes in reported speech.

Is p.67 of TKD, the exchange in PK and that newsgroup example the sum 
total of our knowledge of reported speech and quotations? Both the 
latter instances are reporting a first person singular no object 
speech act. They seem to directly contradict one another.

tlhIngan jIH bIjatlh  - speech reported exactly as the person said it
bISaHbe' bIjatlh - prefix changed to match the observer's perspective.

I would prefer to resolve the contradiction by assuming the Human 
made an error by formulating the reported speech in the manner of 
Federation Standard and not in the Klingon way.

>But Okrand also gave a counter-example in the old MSN newsgroup, 
>which he describes as "giving a direct quotation":
>
>tlhIngan jIH bIjatlh "you say, 'I am a Klingon'"
>
>Nowhere has Okrand ever explained that Klingons use reported speech 
>instead of direct quotations.

When he translates HIqaghQo' qaja'pu' as "I told you not to interrupt 
me" he is demonstrating reported speech. If he weren't, the 
translation would have been the literal meaning he gives below. In 
other words Okrand hasn't explained that Klingons use reported speech 
instead of direct quotations, but he has demonstrated that they use 
what look like direct quotations in reported speech.

How do you think Mahoun should say, "You said you don't trust me," in 
this context? <vIvoqbe' bIjatlh>? How should he said it if her exact 
words were. "luvoq latlhpu' 'a jIQoch" or "Davoqbe'nIS 'e' chupmo' 
jupwI' vuDDaj vIlajta'."?