[Tlhingan-hol] Beginner Story: nuq bop bom 'ay''a' wej

Sat Nov 5 01:40:32 PDT 2011

Yes, you're right, I did read TKD section about { -lu' } and I think I
understand it already. { lu- } when used in conjunction with {- lu' } means
that singular unspecified third-person subject does something to plural
specified third-person object as you have said.

However in light of this, how do you explain example from TKD 4.2.5 { naDev
puqpu' tu'lu' } ?

--
Sincerely,

Daniel Danecki (Wiechu)

2011/11/5 lojmIt tI'wI'nuv <lojmitti7wi7nuv at gmail.com>

> As a person relatively new to Klingon, you don't understand what the -lu'
> suffix does to verb prefixes. To translate "One sees me," or "I am seen,"
> the translation is {vIleghlu'}, not {*muleghlu'}. So, {luleghlu'} does not
> mean that an unspecified plural entity sees him/her/it. It means that an
> unspecified singular entity sees them.
>
> Trust me on this. Look at TKD again in the section on {-lu'}. I remember
> arguing about this with HoD Qanqor nearly two decades ago. I was taking
> your side in this argument. I lost.
>
> It was the beginning of my deepest plunge into learning the language. I
> hope you enjoy a similar plunge soon.
>
> lojmIt tI'wI'nuv
>
>
>
> Sent from my iPod
>
> On Nov 4, 2011, at 6:54 AM, Wiechu <ddanecki at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> That would actually justify use of { lu- } in { pa'Daq tlhInganpu'
> lutu'lu' } as prefix is referring to object in this particular case. And
> that means Qov didn't make error after all. However the example in TKD says
> { naDev puqpu' tu'lu' }. And as { puqpu' } which is an object of that
> sentence is plural, shouldn't there be { lu- } attached to { tu'lu' } ?
>
> SanuQchugh jIQoS
>
> --
> Sincerely,
>
> Daniel Danecki (Wiechu)
>
>
>
>> > It depends on how you understand verb "are". In sentence
>> > "There are Klingons in the room" I assumed (perhaps I'm
>> > incorrect) that Klingons are the subject because "they are".
>>
>> Ah, alright; I assumed you were referring to the Klingon sentence.
>>
>> > However according to TKD {lu-} does not mark a plural,
>> > third-person object. It marks plural, third-person subject
>> > with singular, third-person subject. Am I right ?
>>
>> Not when the -lu' suffix is applied; then it marks a
>> generic/unknown/unspecified subject and a plural, third-person object.
>
>
>> I can recommend using the table on this page as a reference:
>> www.klingonska.org/dict/tables.html
>>
>> --
>> Sincerely,
>>
>> Daniel Danecki (Wiechu)
>>
>>
>> 2011/11/4 Felix Malmenbeck <felixm at kth.se<mailto:felixm at kth.se>>
>> Just want to notify you that I believe you're mixing up the words
>> "subject" and "object": The subject is that which does/is something, and
>> the object is that to which something is done. The -lu' suffix marks an
>> unknown/unspecified/general subject, and when used together with the lu-
>> prefix marks a plural, third-person object.
>>
>> ________________________________________
>> From: Wiechu [ddanecki at gmail.com<mailto:ddanecki at gmail.com>]
>> Sent: Friday, November 04, 2011 07:45
>> To: tlhingan-hol at kli.org<mailto:tlhingan-hol at kli.org>
>> Subject: Re: [Tlhingan-hol] Beginner Story: nuq bop bom 'ay''a' wej
>>
>> Hi!
>>
>> I'm sorry if I'm wrong in any way. I'm the beginner who was asking about
>> "lutu'lu'".
>>
>> In my opinion this error comes from treating tu'lu' as english "There
>> is". So let's assume it is for a second. To say "there are people in the
>> room", it's logical to add lu- at the beginning so the subject was plural
>> as in this case the subject would be a person or persons who are in the
>> room... However even in this case it isn't 100% correct to use lu- because
>> there's no object in "there are klingons in the room" sentence, therefore
>> there's no need to lu-, "0" instead should be used for <they> -> <none>.
>>  pa'Daq tlhInganpu' tu'lu' should be enough.
>>
>> Now if you look at the tu'lu' in the Klingon way (As explained in TKD),
>> tu' means to observe, find. lu' means that there's indefinite subject and
>> the object is a person / persons who are being observed.
>>
>> pa'Daq tlhInganpu' tu'lu' someone observes klingons in the room. If you
>> add lu- at the beginnig, the subject is plural so more than one person is
>> observing (what doesn't really change anything, besides the fact that
>> there's more people who can confirm that klingons are in the room) but
>> what's more important with lu- you change object to singular him/her/it.
>> And you can't really use it with tlhInganpu' anymore because it's an error.
>>
>> --
>> Sincerely,
>>
>> Daniel Danecki (Wiechu)
>>
>>
>> 2011/11/4 Robyn Stewart <robyn at flyingstart.ca<mailto:robyn at flyingstart.ca
>> ><mailto:robyn at flyingstart.ca<mailto:robyn at flyingstart.ca>>>
>> I think I've been convinced by the ubiquity of the so-called error,
>> including the example illustrating the rule, that it is not an error, that
>> it is the way the language it. It's exactly analogous to the French ce
>> n'est pas being used were ce ne sont pas should be, and the same thing
>> isn't unknown in English, "There's plenty of them around here."  "There's
>> five of them."  "There's" is just easier to say than "There'r"  I guess.
>>
>> You know how when Germans learn English [hi Germans!] they use rules that
>> the two languages once shared and produce verb forms that while not
>> actually ungrammatical in English are marked because no native English
>> speaker has used them for over a hundred years?  I am now convinced that
>> lutu'lu' is a hypercorrection like that. I might even stop using it. At
>> least in dialogue.
>>
>>
>> We've discussed this in the past. There are a couple of possible
>> explanations. One is that it's a fixed expression: just add tu'lu' to mean
>> "there is/are." Another is that it's an example of the phenomenon described
>> in KGT: "Common Errors: The Case of lu-."
>>
>> I have a vague notion that lutu'lu' has appeared somewhere, but it's not
>> in TKD or KGT, the only materials I have handy and searchable right now.
>>
>> --
>> SuStel
>> http://www.trimboli.name/
>>
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